Who is brave enough to tell me? :-)

Peter, Paul & Mary think that 500 miles is the right length. They should know, because they were on the road for months at a time when they toured in the early '60s in their Microbus. (It was after they made a load of money that they were able to leave on a jet plane for their gigs.) They blew a couple of engines until they arrived at the 500 mile figure through trial and error. (This was before John Muir's Complete Idiot book came out.) P,P&M were so sure about 500 being the right number of miles that they made reference to it in six consecutive lines in the following song.

formatting link
And I just pulled that out of my stream of consciousness. |--------------------------| | :-) HAVE A NICE DAY! :-) | |--------------------------|

Reply to
Randall
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if the engine is producing more heat than the cooling system can shed, you are correct...

absolute bullshit and frequently repeated MYTH of the vw engine..

they call it "air cooled" for a reason... the air is the cooling source, do you actually believe what you are writing?

more bullshit.... it's obvious you've never owned a vw with a functioning thermostat... really... it does regulate the engine temperature and even at

70 degrees ambient temperature i've noted my thermostat not fully extended... it regulates engine temperature just as the thermostat in a watercooled car does, plain and simple...

um... yes, factory type IV engined did in fact have a thermostat very similar to the type one's thermostat...

no need to do any rigging, it is a factory system that works perfectly.... unfortunately too many ignorant folks perpetuate the myth that it's not needed... you are one of those...

Reply to
Joey Tribiani

I'm with Joey on this one. The factory thermostat work just like a watercooled engine thermostat, it regulates engine temperature by allowing quick warmup, then expanding to allow cooling, but if the ambient temperature is so cold that the engine starts to overcool, the thermostat starts closing, reducing cooling.

And yes, the Type 4 engines did have a thermostat, identical to the type

1 thermostat, just a different hookup via a cable and a pulley instead of a stiff rod.

Another thermostat exists in both engines in addition to the above, and that's the oil pressure control valves. :)

Reply to
Jan Andersson

I don't think you have a clue how the cooling system works on a TYPE IV

man, you are stupider than I thought. The Air cooled engine wants to be around 250 degrees, plus or minus, in order to burn off the contaminants in the oil, and create an efficient combustion. Since the t-stat opens under 100 degrees, once its open there is no need for it to ever close again. Good grief.

Read what I said, and don't be so quick to try and prove your manhood in a usenet post?

I seem to have said no one can rebuild and break in any more TYPE IV engines, since there are no T-stats to be had, and after nearly thirty years, few, if any, are working. You are formally challenged to go find ONE so that those who rebuild their engines can use them. There are none, and the fact that you don't know that, tells me I no longer need to read your posts, and put up with your lack of knowledge of the type IV engine.

If its 70 degress ambient, and your engine exceeds 100 degrees, I can assure you that your t-stat will NOT EVER be able to cool it back down. I DID speak of a hot day, not a winter day, so pay attention before you put your foot into your mouth up to your tonsils.

You are rather bunny brained if you think its possible to go buy a new, working t-stat for a Type IV engine. They are long ago NLA, and if someone fines one that works in a junk yard, they charge $75+ dollars for it.

In the end, the function was related to emissions control, in order to get the engine up to operating temps as quickly as possible. When you figure out how the t-stat can COOL an engine that has already reached operating temperatures, you come on back and let everyone know, but you can't, so you won't be back.

Learn, think, then speak.

Al

Reply to
Al

Hello Al

Maybe you will share with us your reasoning, what makes you think that the cooling air and thus the thermostat would be also in 250 degrees when then engine is in the optimal temperature area (250 degrees)?

Reply to
Olli Lammi

No, it does not function at all like a watercooled t-stat. Not at all. A water cooled t-stat allows cooled water to enter the engine and reduce the temps. The air cooled t-stat simply blocks off the flow of air and the amibient temps will eventually cool the engine. Not the same at all.

it regulates engine temperature by

You should have read what I wrote, as I clearly pointed out the issue is breaking in the rings on a hot day, not in the winter.

Not at all identical, but an option if you can find one. Still won't help to break in a new engine on a hot day.

Sorry, but the topic was engine breakin, and the issue there is to get the engine to operating temperature on a hot day, and there is diddly jack squat that the t-stat can do to make that happen. Those who choose to take the topic elsewhere, are welcome to do so, but they shouldn't bastardize my words, and my needs, just so they can get a hard on, call me names, and think themselves superior, as all they are showing is the lack of the ability to comprehend the question, and offer help in that direction.

Everyone on usenet is the smartest person who ever lived. In real life, I doubt it very much.

Reply to
vwvanagon

Since the flaps are wide open at 100 degrees, plus or minus the grease and the spec, if the engine is at 250 degrees (an it is almost always higher than that once totally warmed up,) the flaps are wide open, and will remain that way, until the temps go near, or below 100 degrees (F) Anytime the engine is running, once it has warmed past 100 degrees (that is the number for discussion sake) the flaps are wide open, and will not begin to close until you shut down the engine.

The air cooled t-stat is not the same thing as a water cooled engine. I has no way to cool the engine down, no reserve of cool air to call upon,. The only thing the flaps can do, is get the engine warmed up quicker than if it was not there. After that, it has no function. If you find a way to run your air cooled engine at 100 degrees for any length of time, so the t-stat cycles off and on like a water cooled version, a lot of people would like to know how you manage that. :-)

A water cooled stat is set for 185-220 or so, because that is the temp that the engine runs best at, and also burns off the water and contaminants in the oil. It can do that, because it has a reserve of cool water in the radiator for when it exceeds the max temp. When an AC exceeds the max temp, the t-stat doesn't do anything towards cooling the engine, as it has nothing to cool it with. Cooling in an AC engine is from the fan, and the well designed flow of air across the heads, directed by the tin, and the oil itself.

Keep in mind the original question involves breaking in the rings, on a hot day. All the rest, is the usual hijacking of a thread which happens all the time, and is not a big deal, but it always leads to things like this, that mean nothing relating to the original inquiry.

Reply to
Al

I think this is not true. As the thermostat is submitted to the cooling air, it will not be in the same temperature as the cylinder heads and cylinders. First the flaps are closed when the engine is cold and the thermostat is in the ambient air temperature.

After starting the engine, the heads and cylinders will start to warm up and as the flaps are closed, they are not cooled down too much by the coolant (= air blown through the fins in the heads and cyls). This will allow the engine to warm up faster, because the coolant flow (= air flow) is restricted. The cylinders will warm up the air around the thermostat. The air around the thermo will surely change because of the air flow below the car caused by it moving when driving. The heads itself will be a lot hotter than the air next to the thermo.

There are three different temperatures to think about here. Firstly the actual temperature of the cylinders and heads. Secondly the temperature of the air besides the thermostat that warms the thermostat. Thirdly the temperature of the thermostat itself. They all are different temperatures.

The analogy is the same with water cooled and air cooled systems. The coolant is different: water vs. air. In watercooled engines the coolant is water, and finally is ambient air due to the radiator, which is cooled by air. In aircooled engines, the coolant is air itself.

The thermostat has no ability to cool the engine in either of the engine types. The cooling is done by the coolant that is colder than the item being cooled and absorbs thermal energy from it. In water cooled engines the thermostat has the ability to control the flow of the water to the engine. The water in the system will never be colder than the ambient air. In an aircooled engine, the thermostat has the ability to control the air flow past the engine. There surely is a reserve of cool air available, ie. the fresh ambient air where ever the car is driving. The air is cooler than the engine and when blown by/through the cooling fins, will absorb thermal energy from the engine, warm up and at the same time cool down the engine.

No and yes. The thermo controls the amount of air flow and thus the cooling of the engine. The engine has a reserve of cool air outside of the car and uses the thermostat and flaps to control the amount/speed of air that passes through the well designed areas across the heads.

Changed the subject of this post to reflect this evolved topic of discussion.

Reply to
Olli Lammi

  1. The air cooled thermostat first blocks the cooling media to allow for faster warmup. Same basic function for the watercooled thermostat, yes?
  2. As the engine reaches normal operating temperature, the air cooled thermostat opens and allows cooling media to flow and cool the engine. Same basic function as watercooled thermostat, yes?
  3. in case of engine cooling back down too much, the aircooled thermostat begins to close and limit cooling media flow. Same for the watercooled thermostat, yes?

I don't see much of a difference, other than water being a more efficient cooling media, and watercooled systems being maybe quicker to react (?) and able to maintain a closer target temp, where an aircooled engine is allowed more fluctuation.

The type 4 thermostat is 100% IDENTICAL to the type 1 thermostat. Take a closer look. The T4 thermostat cable part (the "neck") unscrews and then the thermostat will accept a Type 1 actuator rod. EXACTLY the same.

Reply to
Jan Andersson

Good, then I am done.

Reply to
Al

Different temperature range, and two different parts, one of which fails in the closed position, which is catastrophic.

200K miles on my engine says that where I live, a T-stat doesn't matter, especially since it doesn't have any relationship to the way a water cooled t-stat works, no matter how folks try to bend it. Its not the same, and it can never cool your engine if it starts to run too hot.

thanks for the give and take.

Reply to
Al

The type 1 thermostats come in 2-3 different temp ratings as well. Both fail the same way, they expand when punctured, allowing MORE cooling air to enter the engine. They don't expand 100% as compared to fully hot lenght, but close. Both act the same. Both thermostats ARE the same design and fit, fully interchangeable. I don't see where you get the difference from, saying one of the two fails in closed position.

A watercooled engine thermostat cannot cool your engine either, if it starts to run too hot. Once it's fully open, it's maxed out. If the engine heats up even more, the temperature will rise and there's nothing a fully open thermostat can do, to cool it more. It just sits there, like an aircooled thermostat that is fully open. In both cases, the engine is designed from the factory to have a cooling system capacity that matches the engine's heat output in a certain margin, in all intended market areas. Some market areas get different radiators, heater cores, thermostats, etc... in the same vehicle model. The aircooled VW engine is more forgiving to moderate temperature changes, they can run a little hotter for a while with no ill effects, where a watercooled engine would soon boil over and blow head gaskets, warp heads, etc.

For the extreme cold climates then (Where I grew up in), both engines will have a partially open thermostat for a longer period during warm-up, or even permanently, in order to avoid overcooling and allow the engine to reach it's normal operating state.

Maybe I'm too tired, but I really do not see a functional difference between watercooled and aircooled thermostats.

Reply to
Jan Andersson

yes, yes I do.... seems you are a bit deficient in aircooled engine cooling period... but don't despair, there are many folks with many years of "experience" that repeat the same mistakes over and over and over... hence the experience with it..

you seem to think that an aircooled engine is special... talk about being a bit dense... it's an internal combustion engine... 250F is a bit cool for the heads and hot for the oil... compare that to a watercooled car and you'll see our oil runs quite a bit cooler at the bearings and heat in the combustion chamber is very similar, as is EGT... are you new, or just experienced as I described above?

I did read it....

they are out there... I'm sure folks don't give up as easily on parts that parrots don't proclaim to be unnecessary...

there are parts out there... look at the number of these vehicles still operating...

the fact that you are so poorly educated on a subject you are proclaiming expert status, is quite normal for folks like you.

70F may be winter for you, but not for most of the world... the factory type 1 thermostat opens at 149F-158F(and that is the temperature of the expelled air, not the "engine" which would be higher).. the fuel injected thermostats were higher.... it's not just the temperature that the thermostat opens at that you are ignorant on, it's the fact that you feel it's all or nothing... it's not... it is variable based on temperature, not on or off.(unlike the watercooled thermostats, that are)..

so, it's not that it isn't beneficial, and it's really not that it's hard to find, but that you are a stereotypical VW brokedick tightass... why didn't you say so?

absolutely, because the emission standards for vw's were so strict in the

60's and such...

I've already explained it, but you are incapable of understanding due to your misconceptions.. the thermostat does not cool an engine, you mental midget, it controls the flow of the cooling system.... it's a very simple concept, but so many very simple minded folks just can't grasp it...

follow by example... you are wrong, and creating strawmen and proclaiming experience and knowledge won't make you any more correct... educate yourself so you won't look so silly...

Reply to
Joey Tribiani

good, you won't continue to spread your misinformation... thank you.

Reply to
Joey Tribiani

yep, that you are correct on... and the ones that stand out as not too bright on usenet, such as folks that like to parrot incorrect information, are probably much worse in person too...

Reply to
Joey Tribiani

there are none Jan... you know that, but are trying too be too nice to little Al... he's not happy that he's being corrected on his incorrect information.... he should try looking up "thermostat".... their job, not matter what the medium is, is to REGULATE TEMPERATURE AUTOMATICALLY..... even the thermostat in our homes does this function, hence the name "thermostat"....

Reply to
Joey Tribiani

Ahh Joey, I just can't resist pointing out that you haven't given any useful information, all you have done is insult, and make disparaging remarks, revealing your true, emotional age to be somewhere around seventeen.

The history of usenet is that those who know what they are talking about, talk about it, those who are totally clueless, and spend their teenage years in a dark basement, wearing their PJ's and scuffies, with a bag of doritos in their lap and a can of Red Bull nearby, hoping to find their manhood on a computer, and figure that the more insults they toss out, the tougher it makes them sound, the more things they have to jack off about. You are the latter, and that is inarguable, based on what you have posted here.

since you have proven incapable of answering the original question, why have you not just shut up and moved on to another topic you know so very little about?

Try women. They are much more fun than just holding your dick with one hand, and typing stupid comments with the other.

P.S. An air cooled thermostat does not regulate the temperature on a fully warmed up engine, on a hot day, as is the original comment. Get used to it. You are w-r-o-n-g and don't know what you are talking about.

Reply to
Al

Well, Al..... as a long-time member here, I have a lot of respect for Joey and the knowledge he has contributed over the years. Your insults are demeaning, without merit, and rude: pot, kettle, black.

Enjoy your doritos.

Regards, Jon K. Eischeid

Al wrote:

Reply to
jon

Hey, you can kiss Joey's ass if you want. They're your lips. His facts are WRONG, irrelevant to the topic and the question I asked, he is giving out false information, and misleading people.

Love him if you want. Your lifestyle is your choice.

Joey may well know everything about air cooled engines. He just doesn't know anything about how to interact with others. He is just a punk who lives to post on usenet so he can feel like a man.

fear not. I won't be back. Its not that hard to figure out air cooled engines, so a big "old f*ck" you to everyone who comes here just to give shit when someone asks a question, and believe me, the lack of fundamental knowledge of the air cooled engine is clearly found in the fact that not one of you self professed geniuses could answer my original question, but for Jan, who is probably closest to correct imo, even if he thinks he made up the number.

The rest of you, would rather argue, hijack, and demean than admit you are clueless about something as simplistic as breaking in an engine, but since hardly any of you have ever rebuilt one, its no suprise.

Good group for useless information.

Be sure and come back with something witty, and don't forget to say "plonk!" I love it when usenet people do that.

Reply to
Al

no, sir, you are wrong AGAIN... i offered information that you just don't comprehend.. .just because you don't agree with it, does not make it non-existant... You, sir, are the one that has been throwing out lame insults... shall I post links to it, or will you still be in denial?...

as myself and a couple others have done... all you've done is pass out insults, spread misinformation, and refuse to even to a little research to back you up.. I'm guessing you will continue to *not* talk about it....

that sure sounds like an insult to me... wrong, as you have been for days now, but an attempt at an insult... try harder pup, you ain't there yet...

inarguable? all that means is YOU can't argue against the correct information I have provided... that doesn't make it *my* issue...

i guess you missed my post, just as you missed the class on thermostats.... I'm not only capable, I did, and i have no problem breaking in rings on my engines... I also have no delusions concerning cooling systems... that, and the fact that you've show your enormous hypocrisy, is where you and I differ...

no problem, you should do that...

a thermostat, by definition(the real one, not your misinterpretation) is an automatic device that regulates temperature... You being a bit dense on that fact makes you ignorant... the thermostat does indeed regulate temperature, no matter what the ambient temperature... only an inexperience moron would think that the engine needs it's full cooling potential at all times.... if your engine does, you are just pissing in the wind removing a thermostat instead of fixing whatever you messed up to make it run hot.... run along, pup, and find us some backup for your position instead of sticking your head in the sand and calling names to those that provide you with the truth...when you are done with that, you can f*ck off...

"None are so blind as him that will not see"

Reply to
Joey Tribiani

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