My Volvo sucks in but can't hold it!

Hi all,

I've been lamenting ceaselessly about a vacuum leak but have been unable to clearly identify where it is. I believe I am getting closer based on observations from driving with the radio off and all the windows rolled up so I'm calling on you all again.

I know there's a metal vacuum can in the engine compartment but is there also a vacuum can of sorts in the cabin? If so, is it connected to the accellerator?

Here are my observations (please forgive the mixed syntax as a vacuum is an absence of matter and I treat it like it's the opposite):

  1. When I step on the accellerator I can hear a short hiss as vacuum builds up. [This indicates to me that the vacuum bottle is "empty" and is being "filled" with vacuum.]

  1. When I coast and brake I cannot hear any vacuum hiss, but when I again step on the accellerator after a stop I hear the brief hiss again. [This indicates to me that the rate of vacuum "leaking out" is slow but constant.]

  2. When I step gently on the accellerator I can keep the hiss constant. ie. [rate of vacuum applied = rate of vacuum loss.]

  1. If I release the accellerator before vacuum has built up (eg. part way through step 3) the car will do one of two things: 4a) Stall. 4b) All the dummy lights will flash, the engine will falter but then recover and idle normally. This is a near-stall with RPMs dropping to just above zero and then recovering.

This problem is most evident in stop-and-go traffic or where gentle accelleration is the norm. When I stomp the gas there's rarely a problem (although sometimes RPMs take a short, sharp dive before climbing normally).

There are probably a dozen feet of hoses that could be failing in this scenario but, since I can hear it so clearly, I have to assume that it's happening inside the cabin so I'll start with what's in there.

Any suggestions on where I should start checking first? It's a pretty awkward place to work as I have trouble jamming my portly torax under the wheel to see what's going on.

Suggestions are, as always, very much appreciated.

blurp ps. I believe (hope) that resolving this will address my cold-start/warm-start issues, my cruise control problem, and my rough idling problem all in one shot. If not then hopefully it will get me closer to a complete solution!

Reply to
blurp
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Right, forgot to mention the car is

1983 240 Turbo 330,000 km Auto Sedan K-Jetronic my baby

Thanks again, blurp

On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:22:22 -0400, the illustrious blurp favored us with the following prose:

Reply to
blurp

sorry blurp - you are probably hearing the turbo boost and not the vacuum. I think the cruise problem is electric, at least on the newer models it is, ask someone local to show you what the one way vacuum valves look like and replace the faulty ones. When you accelerate - there is no vacuum with a turbo. That is the reason for the one way valves, they keep vacuum in the system when the turbo is in the boost mode. Should be a $10.00 fix.

Reply to
HankL

Hank,

I am 100% positive that I can distiguish the sound of the turbo from the sound of a vacuum. The nail that secures this observation is the hissing sound of vacuum leak that can be heard when you park in a quiet place and shut the car off... with the engine not turning (ergo turbo not turning) you can hear a short 'SSSsss...' In fact in all instances the sound is evident when the turbo is doing little or nothing.

I realize the turbo may not be vacuum dependant but the rest of the system is. The other information you mentioned is, however, very useful. Based on what you've written I can perhaps draw closer to assuming it's one of these one-way valves that I hear leaking.

Again, the problem is not the turbo nor is it in accellerating. The problem is idling and stalling when engine RPM are dropping to and through the idle speed.

How do I determine if the one-way valves are faulty? I believe I have some idea of how they look (like a little plastic pilgrim-hat in a metal clip) but I may be way wrong. I think I have seen a red and yellow one in the driver's footwell and there is a light-blue one under the hood on the firewall. How many more are there?

Thanks for thinking this through with me.

Regards, blurp

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 03:29:40 GMT, the illustrious "HankL" favored us with the following prose:

Reply to
blurp

Hi there,

Have you thought about the vacuum servo for the brakes? The tail end of this item protrudes in to the cabin.

You could try your previous tests with your foot lightly pressing on the brake pedal.

The only other vacuum in the cabin (depending on model) is for the heating controls.

hope this helps,

Steve.

1989 740 GLE (UK)
Reply to
Steve Rodgers

Thanks Steve, I'll definitely check the vacuum servo for the brakes (would some failure here not also affect braking?) but I believe there are other vacuum components (or at least vacuum dependancies) in the cabin.

I know the brake has a vacuum release switch associated with the cruise control. I also know that the cruise operates a vacuum connected to the accellerator and the throttle actuator under the hood. I understand that there may not be relevant vacuum STORAGE in the cabin (assuming the vacuum tank in the bottom-rear of the centre console only affects environmental controls) but there are vacuum hoses and, vacuum being what it is, a failure anywhere in one of these hoses can cost you your stored vacuum.

One thing I did discover when testing the cruise control system earlier is that the fatter of the two hoses that lead into the throttle actuator does have some leak. I don't exactly know where that hose leads but it's what I'll be tracing next.

Any idea how I can recognize weakness or failure in the one-way valves?

Thanks again, blurp

Reply to
blurp

Hi Blurp

A leak in the vacuum servo would'nt cause a complete loss of brakes, just a lack of braking assistance. This lack of assistance might not be noticeable if it has happend over a period of time.

You have lost me on the vacuum for the cruise control as unfortunatly I have never had that option.

As for testing a one-way valve I would remove it and after wiping it down, try sucking/blowing on it and see what happened!

The leak in the fatter hose sounds promising.

Good luck

Steve

Reply to
Steve Rodgers

What you're missing, though, is the fact that you have maximum vacuum when the throttle is completely CLOSED, and less vacuum when the throttle is open. The throttle lets air in to the manifold, which is where your vacuum is...thus making it less of a vacuum.

More than that, on turbo cars, the air is _forced_ into the manifold...so instead of just having less of a vacuum in the manifold when your foot is down, you have boost. Positive pressure. Anti-vacuum.

I didn't quite understand what you were saying about the vacuum can. I assume this is a kind of vacuum reservoir, which is evacuated when the engine is idling (ie maximum manifold vacuum), and has a non-return valve so that it maintains vacuum when the throttle is opened and, in our case, the turbo boosts up. That's a typical arrangement for a brake booster, which is vacuum-powered. If the non-return valve is leaking, then air might be hissing through it and into your (supposedly) evacuuated vac can thing.

Anyway, if your hissing is proportional to throttle position, it's more likely to be a boost leak than a vacuum leak. Air will be leaking in the opposite direction to what you've been thinking.

fs

Reply to
Fakhina Sohl

My 765T uses an electric pump to maintain vacuum, but I suspect your 240T uses an engine driven pump. (It has to have *something*.)

Perhaps you have a giant vacuum leak - a torn hose - and you are hearing the vacuum pump work its little heart out trying to pull a vacuum? That would follow engine speed rather than throttle, but if manifold draw offsets the demand on the vacuum pump it could account for what you hear.

I have used a hand bicycle pump to chase leaks before - I cut the valve stem off an old bicycle inner tube and jam a rubber hose on it. Maybe that would help. (Be sure to use minimum pressure, since you could damage things with the pressure a hand pump can produce.)

Reply to
Michael Pardee

On 30 Oct 2004 23:04:59 -0700, the illustrious spammers snipped-for-privacy@soon.com (Fakhina Sohl) favored us with the following prose:

This is a VERY useful piece of information. I had been under the impression that the increased throttle and resulting increased air flow somehow created vacuum for the other vacuum-based components. So the vacuum that the engine naturally creates at the manifold (held back by the throttle plate?) is not the same vacuum that drives all the vacum-driven systems in the car? Does the engine then try to draw air at a constant rate and, if given air at its maximum desired rate, the throttle is wide open?

You see, things that are happening at the manifold (things that might generate a quiet hiss) could not be heard inside the cabin. This also does not explain hearing the hiss of air when I shut the engine off. Unless it's a one-way valve somewhere in the system that's simply not doing its job in keeping air from leaking into the system. I have inspected all the major hoses from the rubber cowling coming off the airbox to the aluminum pipe with rubber cuffs that runs from the turbo across the top of the engine and into the manifold and all are intact.

So confused. Based on what you've written I have a new model in my mind to explain the vacuum system but I cannot reconcile it with the reality of the observations.

The hiss I'm hearing is similar to that heard when pressing the "FLOOR" button on the heating control and you can hear the vacuum closing the vents to redirect airflow.

This is making me so crazy.

Anyway, thanks for the useful info and the perspective correction. I make assumptions that seem logical to me but appreciate it greatly when someone points out wheat I'm doing wrong.

Cheers, blurp ps. I haven't noticed any change in my braking. The fat vacuum hose from the Throttle Actuator is still suspicious but I haven't had a chance to investigate!

Reply to
blurp

My 240T had the brake booster hose crack once, it sounded just like a vacuum leak, it was actually a boost leak, same deal, just air rushing the other way.

Reply to
James Sweet

You've got a boost guage right? When the guage is in the black you have vacuum, when the guage is in the yellow you have positive pressure, simple. There's check valves on the vacuum system to keep it from getting pressurized and a vacuum resivoir to run vacuum accessories. Cars with cruise controls had an electric vacuum pump to run them during prolonged boost.

Reply to
James Sweet

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