Re: Volkswagen Touareg "Lux Limited" edition for the US

Yeah....

Three over-priced fuel-guzzler SUVs - the "People's Car" indeed!

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Fuel guzzler? No, not true if you choose the Clean Diesel. This is a LARGE vehicle, yet it will still produce WAY better mileage than my Chevy Equinox will ever think about. Of course, my 09 TDI... that's another story all together.

Wes

And your Equinox cost what? And the Tuareg TDI costs which? And payback is how long?

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Wes:

Let's look at the facts:

Chevy Equinox AWD LT starts at ~$28,000 and burns regular gasoline running about $1.80/gallon +/- average in the US. It is EPA rated at

17/24. Various blogs and reviews state that these numbers are about right on.

The 6-cylinder Touareg is anticipated to start at $42,800, burns diesel at about $2.31/gallon +/- average nationwide in the US. It is EPA rated at 17/25. No real data other than a couple of review tests which *also* support those numbers. Now, consider that the VW has an additional tank of exhaust treatement that must be filled every 10,000 miles or so - a water/urea mixture. Assume that the cost of this additional fluid is $0.01/mile.

Assume (probably falsely) that oil change frequency is the same. Assume a higher-than-average use at 20,000 miles per year. Assume all- highway driving as that is most favorable to the VW.

2.31/25 =3D 0.0924 0.0924 + 0.01 =3D 0.1024 *per mile, fuel* for the VW.

1.80/24 =3D 0.075 *per mile, fuel* for the Chevy.

First cost for the Chevy is $14,800 less.

Any vehicle with scrupulous maintenance will easily last 200,000 miles. Assume scrupulous maintenance for both vehicles. Assume NO inflation and NO fuel price increases. Assume maintenance costs as a wash between the two:

10-year service life overall cost fuel + purchase price @ 200,000 net miles VW =3D $63,280

10-year service life overall cost fuel + purchase price @ 200,000 net miles Chevy =3D $43,000

$20,280 cheaper to own and operate than the VW.

Cost-per-mile to run the VW will exceed that of the Equinox. Cost to purchase will exceeed that of the Equinox, actual carbon footprint will be roughly the same - slightly higher for the VW as Diesel is denser than gasoline.

Just for round figures, the VW would have to get ~35mpg to be as economical as the Chevy. Not gonna happen with a 5,300 pound vehicle.

Figures don't lie, but liars can sure figure. And this sjmm shill for VW is exactly one of those.

People's Car. Yeah, right!

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Where does all this reference to the "People's Car" come from? Yes I know the ancient history from back in the twenties or thirties. It was a slogan that meant something then but has long since been abandonded. VW has a number of brands under it like Skoda, Seat, Bugatti, Bentley, Lamborghini, Audi and commercial vehicles. Not unlike General Motors. They do have a number of vehicles that fit certain people. People is not defined as someone earning less than $20k US that wants a 30 mpg vehicle. That is all the mileage I got out of my air cooded Beetles. If I were a people earning a million a year a Skoda might not be my first pick. As it is I am a people earning less than $100k but more than $20k and I can find a people car in the VW lineup that meets my needs and wants for a fair price. They do not have a truck that meets my needs and wants. Actually they do but they do not import it to my market. So I am not totally a VW people but only because the local distributor does not cater to me. That big heavy capable SUV could have a gas engine and get less mileage and cost a little less. An Escalade could cost $40k but it does not. It is just a Suburban with better leather right?

Diesel does not mean cheap to purchase. It does not mean cheap to operate. It just means usually better miles per gallon but not neccessarilly better $/mile. Diesel mileage times typical gas price for vehicle/typical diesel price for vehicle gives you equivilant gas mileage you must beat for the diesel to start paying off. If there is no premium paid for one engine over the other the math is easy assuming similar maintenance costs.

Yes I know this is not the correct use of the word people. A little levity along the way.

Of course you figure no residual vehicle value which may be true for the Chevy but maybe not true for the VW. I still drive a Toyota I bought in 1987. It still has 5-10% residual value of it's origianal purchase price.

You also assume that the oil companies are going to continue to sell gas fora lot less than diesel. For the first 5 years of my diesel car diesel was the same or a lot less expensive than gas. Sometimes up to

30% less expensive than gas. Is your crystal ball seeing something I am not seeing?

That is an easy answer. I anticipate the cost of *distilled/catalyzed* vehicle fuel in the future will be based on BTU/unit-of-measure. Diesel is more dense than gasoline and so will be more costly.Further to this, Diesel will always be more cyclical than gasoline as long as there is significant demand for it as a heating fuel. What various levels of governments do with taxes thereafter is another issue having nothing to do with the actual basic cost of the fuel.

Less dense LPG/LNG/LH fuels will always have a cost premium due to difficulties in transport, storage, delivery and use. And so will be disconnected from the BTU/Unit-of-measure formula fully supported by existing infrastructure.

Residual value will not be much in either case - I suspect the concept of an SUV in 10 years will be even more foolish than it is today. But apart from that, it will not begin to approach half the cost of the vehicle.

Don't get me wrong. A diplomat traveling in an hostile environment needs a solid platform for an armored vehicle. And trucks (or cars) that work for a living and are chosen for their suitability for that work are just fine and will continue to have a market. But an SUV for a suburban soccer-mom or an urban attorney suffering from testosterone poisoning that will see about as much mud as a Manhattan taxi in daily use is just plain nuts. And the 10-cylinder diesel VW is an obscenity, competing for the most polluting production passenger vehicle on earth. WHAT an important distinction.

My point is that VW is going the same way as Chevy, Ford and Chrysler

- making cars that are pointless and simply wrong for the times - any times. VW barely survived in the US market - coming out with this crap

10 years after their peak - well, you figure it out. I can't.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

I am almost teasing you. I see no need for an SUV but I have been in them when we tried to get somewhere. My open rear end Toyota pickup with wheels spinning certainly would not go where I wanted to go. But probably like you 99.7% of the time my little truck goes where it should go. If the soccer mom has not been poisoned by a testosterone laden guy then she is not a mom. :-)

I have no real use for the new Corvettes but I like they way they look. I suppose I like some of the Mercedes and BMW offerings but I am too cheap to buy one. I really would like a car that is a joy to drive instead of the Jetta. Joy means rear wheel drive, able to go in to corners and use the throttle to hang it out or at least not plow through a turn. No need to go 100 mph or faster. I have been off roading a few times in different vehicles. fun but not fun enough to have an off road vehicle like a Jeep or other toy.

If the manufacturer makes a product that someone will buy then fine. Of course if they spend resources making vehicles you or I are not interested in and neglect to make the perfect Jim or Peter car then shame on them. Do you think they will ever make a rear wheel drive fun car for me?

My daily driver is a Volvo XC70. Sees real mud (no formal road) probably 30 times per year - access to our summer house, and rough conditions each serious snow as I have a 200 mile route to travel if it snows more than 6 inches or so in my territory. Only an LPT 2.5L straight five, but it can get out of its own way, gets reasonable mileage and can haul if needed on regular gas achieving 30mpg highway. I would not describe it as "fun" to drive, but it is quite sure-footed on bad roads, steep grades and slippery conditions. In 78,000 miles it has gotten tires and brakes beyond normal maintenance. My wife drives a Saab 9-5 LPT 3.0LV6 wagon which is a gas to drive on serpentine roads - it just pulls itself around corners. No muscle cars either, but the Saab will do a legitmate 115mpg as a steady-state with something left, and the Volvo will do a legitimate 130mph, but is gasping a bit at that speed.

The VW Eurovan Camper (Winnie vs. Westie) has me a reasonably comfortable but white-knuckled driver at 90, but I would not want to sustain that. 75 is a good comfortable all-day speed for it. We took it across the Tail of the Dragon this fall - It handled just fine, but we set no speed records. The Saab would have eaten that road up. The Volvo behaves too much like a truck in really tight turns to be much fun at it.

We went from an 87 Westie to a 99 Winnie - not only does everything work on the Winnie, but it gets better mileage, gets out of its own way, has AC, ABS, airbags, traction control, central heat... and is quiet inside. The lap of luxury.

An SUV is a wanna-be - it wants to be a truck, it wants to be a wagon, it wants to be a car. Does none of them really well.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Tail of the Dragon in a van. Must have been a hoot. Or disappointment. But if the police were out in force driving a 2 ton dump truck would have been as much fun as a Corvette. Those police sure can take the fun out of driving in the twisty roads up there.

I have no idea about top end on any of my cars. I know they can do 75. My diesel is just not that much fun in the twisties with virtually no engine braking. The 84 GTI or the 80 Rabbit were fun though getting up on three wheels. You have fancier daily drivers than I do. Should I complain to the president that you are not properly sharing the good fortunes?

And your Equinox cost what? And the Tuareg TDI costs which? And payback is how long?

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

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Point taken Peter, but hardly a fair comparison of quality and amenities between my totally loaded $35K list Equinox and a totally loaded 50K+ tourareg. Sorry but my Equinox would fall drastically short in every category.

And the tourareg weighs a LOT more, yet will be able to blow the doors off my pitiful mileage numbers. On the very best day, in ideal conditions, I might, perhaps, just once, get 24 mpg... but generally average high teens. And yes, I check every tank.

My 09 Jetta TDI on the other hand, has never given me a tank less than

40mpg, and I regularly get mid 40's, with my tank at 48.5 mpg.

Wes

Wes:

Let's look at the facts:

Chevy Equinox AWD LT starts at ~$28,000 and burns regular gasoline running about $1.80/gallon +/- average in the US. It is EPA rated at

17/24. Various blogs and reviews state that these numbers are about right on.

The 6-cylinder Touareg is anticipated to start at $42,800, burns diesel at about $2.31/gallon +/- average nationwide in the US. It is EPA rated at 17/25. No real data other than a couple of review tests which *also* support those numbers. Now, consider that the VW has an additional tank of exhaust treatement that must be filled every 10,000 miles or so - a water/urea mixture. Assume that the cost of this additional fluid is $0.01/mile.

Assume (probably falsely) that oil change frequency is the same. Assume a higher-than-average use at 20,000 miles per year. Assume all- highway driving as that is most favorable to the VW.

2.31/25 = 0.0924 0.0924 + 0.01 = 0.1024 *per mile, fuel* for the VW.

1.80/24 = 0.075 *per mile, fuel* for the Chevy.

First cost for the Chevy is $14,800 less.

Any vehicle with scrupulous maintenance will easily last 200,000 miles. Assume scrupulous maintenance for both vehicles. Assume NO inflation and NO fuel price increases. Assume maintenance costs as a wash between the two:

10-year service life overall cost fuel + purchase price @ 200,000 net miles VW = $63,280

10-year service life overall cost fuel + purchase price @ 200,000 net miles Chevy = $43,000

$20,280 cheaper to own and operate than the VW.

Cost-per-mile to run the VW will exceed that of the Equinox. Cost to purchase will exceeed that of the Equinox, actual carbon footprint will be roughly the same - slightly higher for the VW as Diesel is denser than gasoline.

Just for round figures, the VW would have to get ~35mpg to be as economical as the Chevy. Not gonna happen with a 5,300 pound vehicle.

Figures don't lie, but liars can sure figure. And this sjmm shill for VW is exactly one of those.

People's Car. Yeah, right!

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

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Yes but, admit it, we're not comparing apples to oranges here. Of course our cheap Chevy's are cheaper to run. But we need to compare a Lexus or Benz to the Tourareg, and we need to compare 5300 pound vehicles etc....

Wes

No, we don't.

We need to discern whyinhell VW would come out with a series of overpriced fuel-guzzlers at least 10 years after their prime and compete for Top-of-the-Line pollutor status - and then expect praise for it. Bluntly, I hope the entire Touareg line falls so flat that VW will be forced back to its roots of providing simple, practical, solid vehicles suited to the times. And that ain't nohow an SUV. Keep in mind that VW also came out with the Phaeton - another obscenity.

If they want to make luxury cars, they have marques for that (Bentley). If they want to make really, really stupid cars, they have marques for that as well (Rover). There is no need for them to devalue the VW marque any further than it is already.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

No, we don't.

We need to discern whyinhell VW would come out with a series of overpriced fuel-guzzlers at least 10 years after their prime and compete for Top-of-the-Line pollutor status - and then expect praise for it. Bluntly, I hope the entire Touareg line falls so flat that VW will be forced back to its roots of providing simple, practical, solid vehicles suited to the times. And that ain't nohow an SUV. Keep in mind that VW also came out with the Phaeton - another obscenity.

If they want to make luxury cars, they have marques for that (Bentley). If they want to make really, really stupid cars, they have marques for that as well (Rover). There is no need for them to devalue the VW marque any further than it is already.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

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So Peter, am I to assume that your gut belief is that VW should stick exclusively to low end small vehicles?

Wes

There is nothing "low end" about a simple, solid Passat wagon diesel, or a slightly smaller Jetta wagon diesel, or a rabbit 2-door sedan, gas or diesel. If they last for a few hundred thousand miles with reasonable care. What is obscene is their competition for most- polluting-vehicle and their apparent headlong pursuit of a moribund market with aggressively stupid vehicles. Admittedly, they are 'small' cars by typical historical US standards, but by European standards, they are quite large.

The Tuoareg puts me in mind of GM coming out with, and heavily advertizing their latest Hummer just last December. That kind of thinking has GM teetering on bankruptcy - probably inevitable - Does your "gut" want to see VW follow their example?

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Some could argue GM's troubles were caused by Barney Frank and Chris Dodd.

Not legitimately.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

There is nothing "low end" about a simple, solid Passat wagon diesel, or a slightly smaller Jetta wagon diesel, or a rabbit 2-door sedan, gas or diesel. If they last for a few hundred thousand miles with reasonable care. What is obscene is their competition for most- polluting-vehicle and their apparent headlong pursuit of a moribund market with aggressively stupid vehicles. Admittedly, they are 'small' cars by typical historical US standards, but by European standards, they are quite large.

The Tuoareg puts me in mind of GM coming out with, and heavily advertizing their latest Hummer just last December. That kind of thinking has GM teetering on bankruptcy - probably inevitable - Does your "gut" want to see VW follow their example?

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

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While I do see and understand your mindset, at the same time, My Jetta is a cheap car. Not cheap in how it's built, cheap in what I paid. The cheapest car I've owned in probably 20 years, and perhaps longer. Although I love it, by any rule of measure, it's not expensive. My point being, when one moves up in price, one tends to also be driving a vehicle that is larger in size, and unfortunately a result of that is reduced fuel economy. The Turo is a luxury vehicle, and it's heavy. Most polluting? Well, hardly if you compare it to a Dodge Cummin's etc... and luxury? More luxury than we could have on our Jetta's with most every after market adder. It's a different class, and honestly, for a different type of shopper than perhaps we may be.

But to limit VW to utilitarian vehicles is a mistake, when the US market for Lexus and MB Infiniti are the most PROFITABLE divisions of their parent companies. I WANT VW to be profitable... I LIKE their products. And if they offered a CC in diesel, I'd already be in line to get one. I WANT a car that rides better and offers more creature comforts than my TDI, BUT, the common sense side of me refused to buy another car that doesn't deliver great performance AND great mileage.

Wes

..=AD.....................................................

Mpffffff... The Cummins Diesel is put in trucks, which are work- vehicles, not passenger vehicles, and are pretty much designed to haul vs. transport. So, with respect, we have an apple and an orange.

VW has plenty of divisions if they choose to make a luxury vehicle - and those divisions are tooled for it by avocation and reputation. VW is not. But, just look at some recent VW choices:

Phaeton - a real pig of a car that might be worthy of Audi, but hardly of VW. Touareg - an SUV that is a minimum of ten (10) years past its time, also a real pig of a vehicle, also in any version - diesel or gasoline

- getting wretched mileage and being a high polluter. Their V10 diesel (IMAGINE that. A V10 in a diesel in a *PASSENGER VEHICLE*) *is* rated as the most polluting passenger vehicle on earth at this moment. Minivan - A rebadged Chrysler with some pretty rough mechanicals and more than a few teething problems, put charitably.

None of them cheap. None of them worth writing home over, all of them competing against higher-quality, more efficient, less expensive alternatives.

VW, plain and simple, shows signs of having lost its way. They

*appear* to be chasing GM in death-spiral behavior, which is truly unfortunate given their size, power, history and potential.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

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Mpffffff... The Cummins Diesel is put in trucks, which are work- vehicles, not passenger vehicles, and are pretty much designed to haul vs. transport. So, with respect, we have an apple and an orange.

VW has plenty of divisions if they choose to make a luxury vehicle - and those divisions are tooled for it by avocation and reputation. VW is not. But, just look at some recent VW choices:

Phaeton - a real pig of a car that might be worthy of Audi, but hardly of VW. Touareg - an SUV that is a minimum of ten (10) years past its time, also a real pig of a vehicle, also in any version - diesel or gasoline

- getting wretched mileage and being a high polluter. Their V10 diesel (IMAGINE that. A V10 in a diesel in a *PASSENGER VEHICLE*) *is* rated as the most polluting passenger vehicle on earth at this moment. Minivan - A rebadged Chrysler with some pretty rough mechanicals and more than a few teething problems, put charitably.

None of them cheap. None of them worth writing home over, all of them competing against higher-quality, more efficient, less expensive alternatives.

VW, plain and simple, shows signs of having lost its way. They

*appear* to be chasing GM in death-spiral behavior, which is truly unfortunate given their size, power, history and potential.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

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Peter:

You truly make many valid points - perhaps as you've suggested, VW has made what we might clearly describe as "bad marketing decisions" in recent years.

And honestly I don't understand the new rebadged Mini Van. At a time when Van sales have been declining. However the Touareg may well be a late arriver, but that class and size of suv is in fact still selling VERY well. Note the Honda CR-V is in the top five best selling vehicles in the US consistently. So although it apparently doesn't appeal to you, I think it could become a winner, although I'm disappointed at the number I'm seeing on the highway, or actually the fact that I almost never see one! But that vehicle in a TDI, and I would trade in the Equinox TODAY. In fact I've already told my dealer I want to be first on the list if they're ever available.

The CC is gorgeous - perhaps the most elegant and graceful creation ever, and I hope it does very well. As I've said, I'd buy one TODAY if it were available as a TDI.

Wes

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA