5.9 auto to 5spd swap - flywheel/trans choice?

Project - Replace the 46RE in my 98 5.9/auto/4WD ZJ with a 5spd from a 98 5.9/5spd/4WD Ram (or Dakota?) Build is for street performance, not off road
use. Probably won't be mega horsepower, maybe 400 at most.
Slightly confused on the crank/flywheel/trans issue.
1. The 5.2 is external balance, the 5.9 is internal so they use different flywheels, but the Mopar site shows one flywheel P/N# for 5.2/5.9L and a different flywheel P/N# for the 5.9 Magnum. So a used flywheel would have to come from a 5.9 Magnum and not the stock 5.9? 2. Are the 5spd models different depending on whether the truck has a 5.2, a 5.9 or a 5.9 Magnum? 3. I believe I'm looking for an NV3500 or is it the NV3550? What are the horsepower ratings and which years will fit? The NV4500 is "bullet proof" but has a granny 1st and is more suitable for off road use? 4. How can I tell which vehicles have close ratio? 5. Does the V8 Dakota have the same drivetrain and 5 speed models as the Ram? 6. Anyone installed a 5spd into an OBDII Mopar vehicle that originally came with an auto? 7. Can my Jeep PCM be reflashed so it's not looking for auto trans inputs or can I reflash the PCM from a 5.9/5spd/4WD Ram with my VIN and mileage or whatever? I can't pass MA vehicle inspection with a CEL on.
Any help is appreciated. The answers don't have to be too long or involved. Mostly looking to clarify the flywheel/trans model issue. Thanks. John
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John, I have swapped a 2002 5.9 originally with an auto trans into a '96 RAM 1500 with the standard 5 speed. You are correct, there is no source of data available for this change. I can tell you it was very much a success, but I discovered some interesting info. First of course, is the flywheel difference, but my solution was not to buy a new flywheel. I had the flywheel from the 5.2, which I used, but I noted the angular placement of the 5.9 bobweight on the flex plate. I measured the size of this in all three dimensions. I then removed the same amount of material from the back of the 5.2 flywheel 180 degrees from the angular placement of the bobweight. I did this on my vertical milling machine. I then installed the flywheel with no balance issues. I could place a glass of water on the air cleaner and not see a ripple at idle. Worst case would be that I ruined the flywheel and had to buy a new one for $300. I had nothing to lose and it worked perfectly.
The second thing I did to solve the ECM issue was to use the 5.2 computer for the manual trans without any change, but I used the 5.9 injectors on the 5.9 and to do that, I had to change all the connectors on the 5.2 wiring harness and that worked perfectly. I not only ended up with much more power, but my fuel economy went from 15 MPG to 17 MPG. The extra 40 foot pounds of torque right off idle makes the combination so much more drivable I was amazed.
In your case, you will probaly have to swap the ECM for a manual one, but it does not have to be for the 5.9. As just stated, the 5.2 works just as well. and there are many more of those in the bone yard. You may find that the 5.2 ECM requires a second water temp sensor in the inlet manifold. If so, you can drill and tap the existing manifold and just use another of the same sensor currently in use on the 5.9. I hope this helps. Steve

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> Z88Z wrote: > Project - Replace the 46RE in my 98 5.9/auto/4WD ZJ with a 5spd from a 98 5.9/5spd/4WD Ram (or Dakota?) > Build is for street performance, not off road use. Probably won't be mega horsepower, maybe 400 at most. > > Slightly confused on the crank/flywheel/trans issue. > > 1. The 5.2 is external balance, the 5.9 is internal so they use different flywheels, > but the Mopar site shows one flywheel P/N# for 5.2/5.9L and a different flywheel P/N# for the 5.9 Magnum. > So a used flywheel would have to come from a 5.9 Magnum and not the stock 5.9? > 2. Are the 5spd models different depending on whether the truck has a 5.2, a 5.9 or a 5.9 Magnum? > 3. I believe I'm looking for an NV3500 or is it the NV3550? What are the horsepower ratings and which years will fit? > The NV4500 is "bullet proof" but has a granny 1st and is more suitable for off road use? > 4. How can I tell which vehicles have close ratio? > 5. Does the V8 Dakota have the same drivetrain and 5 speed models as the Ram? > 6. Anyone installed a 5spd into an OBDII Mopar vehicle that originally came with an auto? > 7. Can my Jeep PCM be reflashed so it's not looking for auto trans inputs or can > I reflash the PCM from a 5.9/5spd/4WD Ram with my VIN and mileage or whatever? > I can't pass MA vehicle inspection with a CEL on. > > Any help is appreciated. The answers don't have to be too long or involved. > Mostly looking to clarify the flywheel/trans model issue. > Thanks. John
Great info Steve! You came through once again!
OK, I've boosted my knowledge base in the last week so in spite of the length of this post I think there's really only two or three main questions that should be pretty easy to answer.
The only issues now: 1) Still not sure what trans Im looking for. 2) One more basic ECM/PCM question. 3) How do I find out if a used trans is close ratio.
Lots of little question below here but again, I really only need two or three answered. Im mostly concerned with finding a trans, preferably close ratio, that will work. I dont really need answers or info about all the various trans listed here unless theres more than one application for my swap. If you have the time and info though, that's good too.
Was the 5spd Ram you put the 5.9 into a 4WD truck? If it is 4WD what trans is it and how much horsepower are you putting through it? Im looking to do some performance mods but Im not talking crazy HP here. Id be lucky if I got anywhere near 350HP.
Again, I'm hoping to use Dodge parts from a donor truck. Not going for a mega-dollar buildup here. Maybe Im chasing a ghost but Im almost sure I had seen 1500 Laramies with 5.9 Magnum/5spd/4WD for sale (very rarely) in our local WantAds. If so, what 5spd would be in that? Or is it like this?: 5.9Magnums/4WD only have autos. 5.9/5spd/4WD only have non-Magnum 5.9. 5.9Magnum 5spd are only made for 2WD trucks? I hope not!
Other trans questions: Any of the following applicable? NVG3500 - Different from the NV3500? NV3500 Only good for 400HP or even less? NV3500 has fixed bell housing and the NV3550 is removable? NV3550 Was not used as a factory Dodge application, but can be adapted? NV4500 Can this trans be regeared with a more streetable close ratio gearset? NV35xx series can be close or wide ratio? If true how do I find out which ratio a used trans has?
Electronics question: So engine and trans functions are controlled through the ECM but the PCM is a whole different animal? And as long as I can find an ECM from a V8 5spd it wont give CELs so I can pass inspection? That leaves only two questions: Am I correct in assuming the ECM does not know if its in a 2WD or a 4WD truck? Wont the ECM have the wrong performance mapping if it isnt from a 5.9 Magnum?
I thought the PCM did the whole deal. Shows how much I know! Like I said, kinda new to hotrodding computerized vehicles.
Again, thank you very much for your time and effort - John
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You have it backwards. The 5.9 that I used was externally balanced. (The harmonic balancer and flywheel have bobweights oposite each other) The 5.2 in my '96 had no bobweights on either the balancer or the flywheel. I suppose that it is possible that there have been different 5.9 balancing schemes, but I do not know. Typically, low performance, high torque application use external balancing schemes and high performance engines use internal balancing as a general rule. Flywheels from 5.2 engines are more readily available than from 5.9 engines. They all will fit. They are all the same diameter and bolt pattern.
As I understand it, the NV35xx gear is for gasoline engined, light trucks (1500) The NV4500 was used on 2500/3500 trucks with the Cummins or the V10. The 35XX gears are not close ratio, but 1st gear is not a granny gear. Close ratio gears do not work with heavy vehicles and never installed on them. A close ratio gear would typically have a 2.2 to 1 first gear. A standard ratio (like the NV3500 will have a 2.5 first gear. It is the weight of the vehicle and expected load that determines what gear is installed, not just the engine. The NV3500 will handle the horsepower. Its limitation is max torque and shock. The NV3500 has an aluminum ribbed case and I believe the NV4500 has an iron case. This conversion is impractical is you are buying all new parts. It will only make sense if the parts are sourced in bone yards. You will need the pedal assembly, the hydraulic clutch components, throw-out "Z88Z" Steve

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I heard that the first ZJ's in '93 had an option for a 5-speed on the 6-cylinder models so you might score a set of pedals and a center console from a boneyard. Having done an auto-to-manual conversion, that's a big deal.
As far as I can tell, the 5.9L was never offered in a 1/2 ton model with a 5-speed because the NV3500 is not rated for the torque. The 5- speed 5.9L models are in 3/4 ton and are NV4500. The NV4500 most likely will not fit under the floor of a ZJ. A buddy of mine put an NV4500 in a YJ and takes up most of the space even with a 3" body lift. I wanted a 5-speed 4wd 5.9L Dakota but it was never made, probably because the transmission wont fit under the floor.
So, you could use the NV3500 and hope it doesn't break. Everybody said a T5 wouldn't live behind a Chevy 350 but I tried it anyways. It broke.
On Jul 12, 9:18 am, snipped-for-privacy@aol-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (Z88Z) wrote:

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> Z88Z wrote: > Project - Replace the 46RE in my 98 5.9/auto/4WD ZJ with a 5spd from a 98 5.9/5spd/4WD Ram (or Dakota?) > Build is for street performance, not off road use. Probably won't be mega horsepower, maybe 400 at most. > > Slightly confused on the crank/flywheel/trans issue. > > 1. The 5.2 is external balance, the 5.9 is internal so they use different flywheels, > but the Mopar site shows one flywheel P/N# for 5.2/5.9L and a different flywheel P/N# for the 5.9 Magnum. > So a used flywheel would have to come from a 5.9 Magnum and not the stock 5.9? > 2. Are the 5spd models different depending on whether the truck has a 5.2, a 5.9 or a 5.9 Magnum? > 3. I believe I'm looking for an NV3500 or is it the NV3550? What are the horsepower ratings and which years will fit? > The NV4500 is "bullet proof" but has a granny 1st and is more suitable for off road use? > 4. How can I tell which vehicles have close ratio? > 5. Does the V8 Dakota have the same drivetrain and 5 speed models as the Ram? > 6. Anyone installed a 5spd into an OBDII Mopar vehicle that originally came with an auto? > 7. Can my Jeep PCM be reflashed so it's not looking for auto trans inputs or can > I reflash the PCM from a 5.9/5spd/4WD Ram with my VIN and mileage or whatever? > I can't pass MA vehicle inspection with a CEL on. > > Any help is appreciated. The answers don't have to be too long or involved. > Mostly looking to clarify the flywheel/trans model issue. > Thanks. John
Thanks Reverend and Steve,
OK, Im getting somewhere now but still have a few questions. Kind of a three steps forward, one step back process.
Last engine questions:
Is there non-Magnum gas 5.9 also or are all the 5.9 motors after 1994 (or so) either Magnum or diesel? I believe the 6cyl and, 8cyls have the same bellhousing to block bolt pattern. Is the diesel 5.9 the same too?
So, Im finally figuring out the NV4500 was the only a manual transmission available behind any kind of 5.9, and that was a diesel 5.9? Anyone know if a 5.9 to NV4500 bellhousing would fit an NV3550? HighImpact shows an AX15 bellhousing for adapting an NV3550 to the 5.2 & 5.9.
http://www.high-impact.net/transmission_and_gear/nv3550_Chrysler%205_2l-5_9l.htm
Thats hard to figure. You can use a trans from a wrangler behind a 5.9 but the trans that come behind a 5.2 isnt strong enough for the 5.9?
This is where I got the flywheel info I was talking about. It mentions two 5.9s: (page 132)
http://www.mopar.ca/accessories/performance/2007%20Performance%20Catalogue.pdf
http://www.mopartsracing.com/parts/trans.html
And an interesting quote about using the NV3500 from NotchLX at bionicdodge: The transmission has an integrated bellhousing and it's rated for 300ft/lbs of torque. It uses a hydraulic clutch system. (good for your leg) These units are a mid-grade transmission that does remarkably well in a stock application. However once the power is turned up on these suckers you might want to pick up a spare. I ran at 320RWHP and 375RWTQ for over 10,000miles and bolted on slicks once a week for a year with 3,000rpm clutch drops and never had a single problem out of mine... The clutches went before the tranny gave any signs of disintegration. The Centerforce dual friction clutch holds up pretty good to the added power and is definitely a lot more crisp on the shifts than the stocker. Others haven't been as lucky. I've heard of people blowing out their 5spd with little to no mods??? Depends on what kind of day they were having at the New Ventures shop on the day your transmission rolled out. Plenty of people are running modded 318, 287, 360, and 408 engines in front of these units with good results, however the general consensus says "O-YOUNG PADOWAN~ PLAY WITH FIRE AND YOU WILL BE BURNED EVENTUALLY"
Reverend - I'm familiar with early ZJ 5spd parts. That's what I was planning on. I think XJ pedals work too. I believe the swap could be done using the original console though. I have a few interior pix from someone who did the 5.9 5spd ZJ conversion with an NV4500.
Doesn't look like he cut the tunnel?
Heard a rumor some later ZJ export diesel models had manual trans so that could be a possible pedal and console parts source but I haven't looked into that yet.
Now my last bit of confusion (for the time being!) :-)
Is the ECM or ECU a different animal than the PCM or are they just different names for the same thing? Im afraid Ill lose the high performance mapping if I use the 5.2 ECM.
Looks like its gonna be a lot of work!!
Thanks again folks - John
View the attachments for this post at: http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p 94145#9094145
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Do not confuse the 5.9 diesel with the 5.9 gas engine, they are two very different animals. The 5.9 diesel is the Cummins engine and it has NOTHING in common tith the DC 360 Magnum gas engine. I doubt that they would make the A engine once the Magnum engine cam out.

The 5.2 and the 5.9 gas engine have the same bolt pattern.

That would be incorrect. The NV4500 sat behind the 5.9 gas engine as well.

Nope. The NV4500 has a removable bellhousing while the NV3500 is a one piece unit.

If you get the Dodge version it already fits both motors.

It sounds like this person was using it in a car which does put a little less strain on the transmission.

In mist cases, it's the same thing.

In many cases, more than it's worth unless you like making these modifications.

--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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============== every year or so.......... this NG actually has a thread that's informative and constructive.......
Me, being a tranny tech, I would like to chime in on this subject, however.....the locals know more about the swap out and specs than I do.....being as I don't do very many of em at all.
anywhooooo............
good thread.
~:~ MarshMonster ~takes a toke..sips his crownroyal.........wonders if he shudda brung up religion.......jest to keep things interest'n~ ~:~
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> > > > > > > > > > > > TBone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks TBone. Some good info. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Is there non-Magnum gas 5.9 also or are all the 5.9 motors after 1994 > > > > > > > > > > > > (or so) either Magnum or diesel? > > > > > > > > > > > Z88Z wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Do not confuse the 5.9 diesel with the 5.9 gas engine, they are two very different animals. The 5.9 diesel is the Cummins engine and it has NOTHING in common with the DC 360 Magnum gas engine. I doubt that they would make the A engine once the Magnum engine cam out. > > > > > > > > > > TBone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got ya! Just read up on the Cummins motor today and found out its a V6! I assume it does not have the same bolt pattern as the V8s? > > > > > > > > > > From Wikipedia: The LA family was rebranded as the Magnum V6 and V8 in the 1990s. > > > > > > > > > > So after about 1994 there was only the 5.2 Magnum and the 5.9 Magnum and no stock" vs HP motors? > > > > > > > > > > Im used to the old days when there were stock motors and high performance versions and the HP versions were designated as Magnums, (going back even further they were given the Commando designation!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "I believe the 6cyl and, 8cyls have the same bellhousing to block bolt pattern. Is the diesel 5.9 the same too? > > > > > > > > > Z88Z wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The 5.2 and the 5.9 gas engine have the same bolt pattern. > > > > > > > > TBone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same pattern as the 3.9 V6 too, right? Is that BH bolt pattern the same as the I6? > > > > > > > > I believe the AX15 was used on the I6 in Jeeps. Was it ever used on the 3.9 V6? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "So, Im finally figuring out the NV4500 was the only manual transmission available behind any kind of 5.9, and that was a diesel 5.9? > > > > > > > Z88Z wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "That would be incorrect. The NV4500 sat behind the 5.9 gas engine as well. > > > > > > TBone wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > "Anyone know if a 5.9 to NV4500 bellhousing would fit an NV3550? > > > > > Z88Z wrote: > > > > > > > > > > "Nope. The NV4500 has a removable bellhousing while the NV3500 is a one > > > > > piece unit. > > > > TBone wrote: > > > > > > > > "HighImpact shows an AX15 bellhousing for adapting an NV3550 to the 5.2 & 5.9. > > > Z88Z wrote: > > > > > > "If you get the Dodge version it already fits both motors. > > TBone wrote: > > > > > > Great! So there is a 5.9/5spd removeable bellhousing! > > Actually the transmission I mentioned in that sentence (asking if the NV4500 bell housing would fit) was the NV3550, not the NV3500. > > The NV3550 does have a removeable bellhousing. > > So, that still leaves me wondering if the NV4500 bellhousing fits the NV3550. > > > > So heres what Ive got so far: > > NV3500 fits the 5.9 but might not be able to handle the torque. > > NV4500 fits the 5.9 but the 1st gear is too low for street applications. > > NV3550 sounds like the best option but would need the bellhousing from an AX15 to fit the 5.9.
> > > > Just saying, it seems odd that the NV3500 is made for the 5.2 but might not handle the 5.9 whereas the NV3550 is made for a Wrangler (I6 motor?) but can handle the 5.9. > > Then again maybe the High Impact NV3550 is built with stronger internals. > > > > "And an interesting quote about using the NV3500 from NotchLX at > > bionicdodge: > > I ran at 320RWHP and 375RWTQ for over 10,000miles and bolted on slicks once a week for a year with 3,000rpm clutch drops and never had a single problem out of > > mine..... I've heard of people blowing out their 5spd with little > > to no mods...... Plenty of people are running modded 318, 287, 360, and 408 engines in front of these units with good results > Z88Z wrote: > > "It sounds like this person was using it in a car which does put a little less strain on the transmission.
From his post sig Im pretty sure hes talking about his Dakota. Either way, 320RWHP is nothing to sneeze at. If people are spending the money on a 408 most likely its putting out some good ponies too. Maybe the NV3500 would stand up to the strain. I doubt Ill be going too crazy with the horsepower on my ZJ. It might see a bit of spirited driving but it certainly wont see street racing or quarter mile use.
As far as the PCM goes, I can use one from a 5.9/5spd Ram but it would have to be reflashed with my VIN? In MA Im pretty sure the whole emissions inspection on OBDII vehicles is done by the VIN which is read directly from the port.
TBone - Thanks again, all replies are appreciated - John
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Z88Z wrote:

Theres two versions of the NV3500. http://dodgeram.org/tech/transmission/nv3500_spec.htm - this page only lists Ram specs. IIRC Dakotas use the narrow ratio trans. I dunno if the NV3500HD is used in any production vehicles.
I personally have had very good service from the NV3500. I test drove a few that shifted like crap (mostly wide ratio 1500s). I believe there are QC issues, but if you can find a good unit you'll get solid performance from the transmission.
I wouldn't fear using it in your described application with basic "use your head" rules like don't hog the throttle in overdrive, don't dump the clutch, don't tow huge loads in OD uphill, etc. A manual transmission's life span is almost exclusively dictated by the driver.
Also, be sure to buy the proper NV3500 transmission fluid. Its not *that* expensive, and its considered a lifetime lubrication. I have 80k on mine and its still topped off and clean.
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> snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: > Theres two versions of the NV3500. > http://dodgeram.org/tech/transmission/nv3500_spec.htm - this page only > lists Ram specs. IIRC Dakotas use the narrow ratio trans. I dunno if > the NV3500HD is used in any production vehicles. > > I personally have had very good service from the NV3500. I test drove a > few that shifted like crap (mostly wide ratio 1500s). I believe there > are QC issues, but if you can find a good unit you'll get solid > performance from the transmission. > > I wouldn't fear using it in your described application with basic "use > your head" rules like don't hog the throttle in overdrive, don't dump > the clutch, don't tow huge loads in OD uphill, etc. A manual > transmission's life span is almost exclusively dictated by the driver. > > Also, be sure to buy the proper NV3500 transmission fluid. Its not
> *that* expensive, and its considered a lifetime lubrication. I have 80k > on mine and its still topped off and clean.
Thanks for the reply,
So you think the NV3550 in a Ram would be the wider ratio and the Dakota would be closer ratio? If that's the case, since I want something more streetable it would probably be a good idea to use the Dakota transmission.
I guess quality control can be a big issue with those transmissions. I figure I should have decent luck with it as long as I don't get a bad one to start with. No clutch dumping for me. I figure I'll be driving it more like a sports car. Hoping to lower it a bit, sway bars, springs etc.
We bought an 5.0 5spd Mustang GT new in 86' and got 215K miles out of the original clutch. Never dumped the clutch and spun the tires very rarely, usually by accident. It did see a lot of "spirited driving" and some powershifting from time to time. Of course in it's last days I was the only one that could get it in gear. When I sold it in 2000 it still had the new clutch in the back seat that I had been carrying around for six months.
As far as towing goes, No way! In fact I'll probably take the tow package off. I have no use for towing anything and that way my ex can't ask me to use the 5.9 to help her move again! LOL!
Thanks again for the reply - John
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