Re: GM, Ford reputations take a hit

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Re: GM, Ford reputations take a hit Group: alt.autos.ford Date: Tue, Feb 6, 2007, 2:53pm (EST+5) From: snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (Jeff)

My father has a 2001 or so Grand Prix. My dad a lot of engine rebuilding and head repair work for the dealer over maybe 40 years. When there was a problem with the transmission, most of the costumes<<<<<<<<
What is a "costumes?'
do you mean "customers?"
got a replacement transmission, but had to pay for the labor. However, because my father knew the people in shop, they got GM to pay for the whole thing. All the costumers<<<<<
customers not costumers. They're two entirely different things
Eric
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You are saying I should expect design errors to be fixed during the warranty? Well a new weapon for my new car maintenance! <:)
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They could run vehicle scrap recycling yards. Initially most product to them would be GM & Ford vehicles, eventually Toyotas would be their common vehicle to scrap. <:)
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You are so right. That's a real problem for them. They don't actually contact their customers.
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<...>

That's been a major problem for Ford. Ford has been unable to bring out a profitable car in the $12k segment. So those buyers go to Toyota Yaris, Honda Fit or a Hyundai. (I don't know what the cheapest Kia or Hyaundai sells for, but hte cheapest Toyota and Honda I believe are over $10k.) Then, in five years, when they start making more money and need a new car, the new car is Toyota, Honda or Hyundai. And it more like a Rav 4 for a Tundra or Camry, an Accord or Pilot or whatever new and better car comes for Korea.
However, if the first car was a Ford or GM, so might be the second and subsequent cars.
Jeff

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Beyond their quality, they have an additional problem that they can't get control of. Many of their dealers make it pure torture to both buy and own their products. Many of their enemies were created by the dealers, not the product or the corporation.
They say they can't really tell their dealers what to do. They're independent. Personally, I bet there are people everywhere who would be more than willing to represent them.
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wrote:

Right on, some dealers are downright ugly and many including me won't enter their business again. Here we have one rich cat who made his initial fortune on a Gm dealership. He now has many dealerships of several stripes including Toyota. Toyota is recent for him, he's a survivor.
His approach is to fire the worst salesman of each month. This attitude of intimidation is passed on against the customers. i've tried them 4 times over 20 years; since I don't submit to their intimidation I leave very soon. Buying a new car is a tough enough decision, without this as well. He hasn't taken up a Chrysler dealership.
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wrote:

Actually, they can pull the dealership from a dealer if they don't make quality standards. One Caddy dealership closed up near where I used to live (Crea Caddy - maybe Mike knows these people). The new dealer was required to increase the size of the showroom within a certain amount of time.
If a McDonald's gets a lot of complaints about a particular independent francise, they will investigate. If there are problems with the way the restaurant is run (other than the restaurant sells lots of unhealthful food), McDonalds will either pull the francise or take over the restaurant if the problems aren't fixed. Likewise, if a dealer refuses to repair cars with complicated problems (I know of one dealer who was known to try to get complicated problems sent to another dealer) or gives a really poor costumer service experience, the car makers should be able to step in.
My dad used to sell and repair Kohler, Tecomsah and B&S engines. If he didn't meet the quality standards (mostly for training), he would not have been a dealer for them.
I would be surprised to learn that if a dealer doesn't do an adeqaute job, that the maker can't pull the francise. I think the Japanese excercise these rights more often than the big 3.
Jeff
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It is not as easy to pull a franchise as you might think. Remember Ford and the "Blue Oval Certified Dealer" fiasco? Ford wanted to identify dealers that met certain minimal standards. A group of dealers in Texas sued Ford saying this wasn't fair - and won. States have very restrictive laws that favor the automobile franchise owners over the manufacturers. State legislatures are a lot more likely to favor local dealers than far off manufacturers. The Japanese manufacturers often have better franchise agreements (from the manufacturer's standpoint) than US manufacturers. They arrived much later and avoided many of the bad ideas in the much older US manufacturer's franchise agreements. The newer brands (Acura, Lexus, even Saturn) have even more restrictive agreements. I was surprised that GM got away with creating the Saturn brand. If I had been running a Chevrolet dealership when Saturn was created, I'd have been very upset if GM granted a Saturn franchise that competed with me. I suppose this is why GM originally set Saturn up as a completely different (but wholly owned) corporation.
Ed
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And the big 3 surely have had the oppurtunity to read the Japanese aggreements. They could have failed to renew the francises or put in new terms. The francise aggreements are not for ever.
Jeff

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GM originally set Saturn up as a completely different corporation determine if a small vehicle could be built in the US at a completive price, rather than relying on GM economies of scale to subsides the selling price.
mike

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wrote:

They are also going to standard GM designs, such as metal body sides.

They now get engines from anyone if the price is right, such as the Honda V6 engine.
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The MSRP prices for smaller vehicles are indeed subsidized a by the much higher profit margins on larger cars and trucks. You would be surprise to know just how little more it costs a vehicle manufacture to build a vehicle that sells for 35K, over one that sells for 20K
When Ford introduced the FWD Escort, it cost nearly twice as much to manufacture as the RWD vehicle it replaced.. The Escort was sold to dealers at a loss of several hundred dollars for several years before economies of scale succeed in greatly reducing the build cost. Why was it sold at a loss? Because it was needed to meet the CAFE.
The Taurus, which came to market six years later, was also much more expensive to build than the RWD car it replaced, as well. The selling rate for the Taurus the first year, at over 400K, as well as the higher profit MSRP, made for a quicker cost recovery
Before you ask my source, I worked at Ford on the Escort and Taurus design teams at the time.
You, as you are prone to, are free to believe whatever you chose. ;)
mike

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Ford and GM had to spend bullions to change several of their assembly plants from building less expensive RWDs to start building FWD vehicles. The 500 was not comparably expensive to bring to market since it was built in the new FWD plants, off a previous Ford chassis on which it build Volvos.
No import builds or assembles small car in the US, they are all imported or assembled in Canada of imported parts. Honda, Nissan and Toyota builds MIDSIZE cars in the US and Nissan builds trucks. In the case of Toyota, with the exception of those built in the GM/Toyota plant, only assembles them of mostly imported parts, which greatly reduces the build costs Honda does not really build trucks, they make their trucks on car chassis and are more like crossovers than real trucks
mike

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Actually, Civics are produced in Ohio and of domestic and globally sourced parts. Corollas are built in the US.
.honda.com/news/2005/4051122.html
> Honda, Nissan and Toyota builds

I think that you are missing the point that Toyota and other imports use a lot parts made in the US. Whether or not it is more than half differs on model and manufacturer. Toyota spends something like $28,000,000,000 on parts and supplies in the US. Toyota has two US design facilities, one near Detroit and the other in California. Car makers want to make their vehicles with mostly local parts near where they sell their vehicles. For example, VW was making the old Beetle for years (going into the 90s, I think) in Mexico and Brasil. Likewise, Ford makes a lot of vehicles for sale in Latin America in Brasil and Mexico. And it builds cars for Europe mostly in Europe. And Ford and GM are getting into make cars in India and other parts of Asia. And, when they do that, that want to get parts made locally, if possible. It builds goodwill. And it is cheaper than shipping completed parts overseas, in most cases.
Most of the parts that Toyota uses for their cars and trucks in the US come from American and Canadian plants. When they first starting building cars in the US, they used mostly important parts, but most of the parts they use in US-built cars and trucks are domestic, now. (Nearly 1/2 of all Toyota parts on its new cars and trucks come from the US; very few Toyota parts come from the US on cars built outside the US; so that means that most of the parts on its US-built cars have to come from the US.)
Overall, domestic brands have a higher proportion of their parts built domestically, though, around 75-80% for US makes vs. 50% to 66% Toyota (different source give different numbers).
(Do not tell me anything about VINs and domestic content unless you are able to back your claims with real evidence.)

Yet they get the job done in a manner that suits their buyers. Just because you don't think that the construction is the best construction technique doesn't mean they're not trucks. They get the job done. And in the case of Toyotas, they get to stop on ramps, right in the middle of the Superbowl. And, Toyotas will run in a few weeks at Daytona! You don't get more American than that, except, of course, for Ford and GM.
If you don't like the way they are built, buy a different truck.
Jeff
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Toyota has only around 5% of the full size truck market, Nissan around 3%.. Honda does not even offer a full size truck. Ford has more than 35% and GM has nearly 30%, Dodge nearly 20%. Corollas are assembled in Canada of mostly imported parts
Naturally you are free to believe whatever you wish but even Toyota does not agree with you. Their ads say assembled in the US of world sourced parts. ;)
mike

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