GM taps into Los Angeles market

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You prove my point.
What is the source of "everything I've every heard"???/? Comsumer Reports? USA Today? Edmunds? All, (especially back in the 80's and 90's) were well known for slamming American namplates in their articles/surveys. They seem to be a little more unbiased today, but only slightly so.
Once again, things such as gas mileage is a tangible thing: it can be proven through testing, or everyday driving, who gets better gas mileage. I stand by what I say. Compare apples to apples, GM gets as good as, or better than, foreign nameplates. They also continue to sell more different brands of vechicle that get 30 mpg or better than anyone. These are facts and can be proven.
Quality is a little bit more subjective than gas mileage, but Toyotas' recalls over the past few years have been in the millions, probabaly in the tens of millions by now. They have recalled more vechicles than they have sold the past few years. Any way you slice it, that does not make them the "king" of quality, or even better than GM.

Peoples "choices" caused many many factories to shut down simply because they werent selling enough cars to keep the factroy profitable. The number of jobs gained by foreign nameplates is substancially less than the number of jobs lost due to shutdowns of American factories. Also, a higher per cent of parts on these "American made" foreign nameplates are made overseas, costing even more American jobs.

They can also CUT US jobs to avoid currencey losses if needed. It works both ways. Or simply pull out of the states if the countries ever have a diplomatic falling out. Could happen.

Just a long line in problems they have. A really really long line. Check it out.

Great point you make here, and one that those like yourself are always trying to use a car twenty some years old to justify your argument about GM's poor quality. While I would still defend their quality back then,the first question that comes to my mind is, "Did you buy this car new?" If not, how old was it, how many miles did it have on it when you bought it, and what was the car's condition when you bought it?
Myself, I owned a couple or so late 80's GM cars, bought new, or slightly used, and had pretty good service out of all of them.

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On 12/13/2009 11:43 PM, jr92 wrote:

By "everything I've ever heard", I was referring to people sharing their personal experiences, and I suppose some reviews here and there too.
You say that Edmunds and others were biased, but you yourself seem biased. So I'm not sure who to believe.

Yeah, that could be true now (the key phrase about Toyota's recalls is "over the past few years"), but who's to say Toyota didn't have good quality in years past? I've known people who owned Toyota Celicas from the late 70s to early 80s and drove them well into the 90s. My mom had a 1980 Toyota Celica that she got rid of in 1998, mainly just because the transmission finally went bad (she had some transmission work done by a 3rd party once, and she said the transmission was never the same since then).

Again, vilifying the foreign companies for taking away American jobs. Besides, the same thing can happen within American companies. If you're loyal to GM, for example, then that means Ford is losing your sales. I don't think US company vs. US company is much different than US vs. foreign companies. It's always one company's jobs vs. others.

There's risk with anything. As you say, the foreign companies could cut US jobs (which American companies could do, too), or they could pull out; American companies can go out of business, too. I really don't see that there's a lot of difference whether the company is American or not.

True, we both had bought our cars used. However, my '87 LeSabre had only 122K miles on it, and its engine started dying at low idle (and even at speeds under 30mph). I would not expect that from a car with only 122K miles. However, your argument could be said about any car - Any car will start to develop problems over time.
Also, I had another point in there, which was that GM changed their parts very often, so if you had to get some repair work done on your GM, it's very important to know the precise date it was built so you know which exact parts you need to order. For example, the brake pads/calipers could be different, depending on what part of the year the car was built in.
Eric
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I'm allowed to be biased. The only iron I have in the fire is I am an owner of several GM products over the past 30-some years.
Edumunds, and others; however, are supposed to be objective. They are PAID to be objective. But their bias against American namplates goes back over 30 years.
Once again I use the following argument.
Any measurement that can be factually used in comparison with American vs foreign nameplates, the American nameplates PROVE, time and time again, and have proven for many years, that they are as good as, or better than, the foreign nameplates.

So, you are saying people should buy Toyotas today, because 30 years ago they were reliable, even though today, they might be quite so good????
That's kinda funny, because most GM bashers, including you, use bad experiences you had 20 or 30 years ago to justify NOT buying GM products today, even though there is absolutly no doubt that they make a world class product today in terms of reliablilty.
Something seems a little hyprocritcal here to me.

Not vilfying foreign companies at all. I'm vilifying people who have bought foriegn nameplates over the past 30 years, costing millions of American jobs, then justifying it by such untrue things, as cost, quality, gas mileage, and then the silly "my choice" nonsence.

If you can't see the difference whether a company is American or not, you have some real issues.

122k miles on it???? K??????????
I thought you said you lived in Oregon.
Is that now part of Canada?????
Here, in the United States, we still use(at least for now) miles, not killometers.
Anyway, what is that, maybe 85-90 thousand miles???
A lot of chances for a car to be abused.
Especially if you bought it used with that many miles on it, without having the car checked out by someone who knows cars.
Not a good argument to use buying a fairly high-milage car, and then knocking it when something goes wrong.
Most Buicks of that type and year, when taken care of had no trouble getting 150-200 thousand miles, or even more.

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On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 21:03:37 -0800 (PST), jr92

Awwww....c'mon.... "Try us again. ( we've added new chrome )" R E A L L Y.... we've improved !!
After being repeatedly screwed, ( even 20 years ago ) consumers are wary.
You start to feel like "Charlie Brown kicking the football".
Once you've made he purchase, that payment book comes due every month for the next four or five years..... No matter how many times you've been back to the dealer for repairs or recalls. It's an expensive, and memorable lesson. ( sort of like food poisining )
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RJ, you sound like you may have, at one time, owned a Vega, or possibly bought a high milage, abused, Buck Regal, and think GM makes junk,
Which is it?
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On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:40:12 -0800 (PST), jr92

C'mon.... We may not remember our kids birthday, but we never forget our cars.
I'm sure you can name your best car, your worst, the most fun, etc. etc.
My first car was a '50 FORD.... held together with baling wire. Go out cruising on fifty cents worth of gas.
My sexiest car was a TRIUMPH TR3. Looked great, bit a piece of crap. You needed a full-time mechanic to keep it running.
Then there was the CORVAIR where the engine self-destructed shortly after the warranty expired.
Most solid car was a DODGE DART sedan.
Most useful all-around car was a PLYMOUTH Sundance (?) Ran perfectly 'til about 65K, then seemed to have a major failure every month.
Best road car was a BUICK Century. But then I got bit with the ( expensive ) manifold failure.
Some dealers were OK for repairs..... Others did the best to discourage warranty work, others tried to make their whole profit in the shop.
????
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OK, I'll bite.
1 First car I ever owned, and I guess my favorite, partically BECAUSE of that, was, a 1976 Chevy Nova SS. Beautiful red-orange with black striping. Run pretty well, and got 19 mpg highway. Not bad back then for a car with a V-8. Very reliable.
2. Best looking, (and I guess, most fun), would be a tie between two Trans Ams. One was a 1978 Mayon Red with WS6 and the W72 package. Bought off a friend when it was only a couple years old. Ran the thing for 15 years. Was pretty fast, and handed well. The other TA is one I currently own, a 98 model. Black. Ram air. A really devasting machine. bought it a couple of years ago on eBay with only 12003 miles on the odometer. In time, it may replace the Nova as my favorite car.
3. Best all around. My 98 Grand Prix GTP. Black. It is not the fastest, best-looking, best handling, most reliable, or most fuel effecient car I have owned, but it certainly is the best all around combination of these things .Bought it new 11 and a half years ago, and it still does the job for me. I really love this car.
4. Worst I have ever owned. Easy pick. One of the few times I ever left GM for another car. I bought an 82 Dodge Charger new. One of the first cars to offer 50000 mile extended warranty. Good thing it had it. I used that warranty many times before I got rid of it at 41000 miles.
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On 12/15/2009 9:03 PM, jr92 wrote:

No, actually, that's not what I was saying at all; I don't know how you got that from what I said. I was merely stating that Toyotas DID have good quality at one point in time, because you seem to refuse to believe that Toyota ever built any good cars.

So, you think I am lying about people I've known who have had bad experiences with GM? You seem to refuse to believe that GM has ever made any unreliable products, based on your own experience; however, different people sometimes have different experiences.

That seems a little silly to me, honestly.. All companies, foreign or domestic, are just trying to earn a living. We all share this planet, so I'm not sure there's a reason not to support one company just because they're not from your home country.

Do you know what K means? K means thousand. So, 122k miles = 122,000 miles. Damn..
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On 12/17/2009 12:33 PM, Tom wrote:

No, I don't watch CSPAN; I only have over-the-air TV.
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And I don't know where you get that I don't think Toyota builds a decent product. They do. They just aren't an omnipotent vechicle incapable of never having a problem that some make it out to be. They have a lot a SERIOUS issues. MAJOR issues that somehow still get minimized, as opposed to an American nameplate, which, after having the dome light go out, is called "junk", by American nameplate bashers. It happens all the time.
Then, after having been called to the carpet, will usually say, "I never said that", or something to that effect.

Some us call it patriotism. A lot of us here had parents who lost jobs because of the mindset of the likes of you. But, of course, here is where the merry-go-round comes full circle, and we get into the "quality", or "choice" debate again.

K also means kilometers. You know that. You should never had admitted that. Buying a used car 15-20 years ago with over 120,000 miles, and then bashing the nameplate because it wasn't as reliable as you thought is should be,sounds a lot worse than buying a car with 80,000 and having trouble, as I implied when I thought you were using metrics.
Of, couse, as has been mentioned many times before, you sound like the typical GM basher. Bought a high miler many years ago, had problems with it, and that means ALL GM products ever made must be junk.
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On 12/17/2009 9:46 PM, jr92 wrote:

You've got to be kidding. Kilometers is commonly abbreviated as km, not k. Also, I used the word "miles", as in "122k miles" - How could you have interpreted that as 122,000 kilometers? Have you never seen anyone write car mileage like that? K is often used to mean thousands - That has its roots in the prefix "kilo", meaning thousand.

Well, I'd expect a car to last a lot more than 122,000 miles.
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On 12/17/2009 9:46 PM, jr92 wrote:

And why does it need to be made into a political issue? As I said before, buying GM means that other American companies will lose your sale, too. Anyone can lose their job due to lack of sales, whether the company be American or not. Bringing politics into it just brings it into a whole new level, and I'm not sure I see the point.
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Patriotism-is-not-political.
Of course, in some circles,(evidence appears you may be in one), it is politically incorrect to be patriotic.
Just hope I didn't offend you.
In today's America, that is the most gosh-darned dastardly deed one can do.
Second worst offense is flying an American flag in Berkeley.
Now, I just went political.
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On 12/19/2009 10:10 PM, jr92 wrote:

I consider myself patriotic; I guess different people show it in different ways. And my thing with politics is that I guess I often don't really understand politics.. Regarding flying an American flag in Berkeley, Berkeley is in California, which is part of the US, so I don't know what the offense of flying an American flag there would be.. You've lost me on that one.
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jr92 wrote:

I think Toyota does better on the pricing as too many people have been burned with GM/Chrylser and other domestic screw ups.

They do and still do.

Nope, ignore customers and they don't come back or demand a much lower lower price next time as your quality sucks.
But this time it is also about brand damages and morals.
Why should a Californian pay for a GM? GM bailout that is. California, as well as 48 or so other states get the Obama auto corruption debt and GM gets $60,000 per auto in 2009 as a subsidy.
People should walk away from GM on principle. Get too many GMs on your paycheque and you might as well not go to work. GM, they keep on sucking.
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Too bad government wouldn't redirect the $60,000 per vehicle subsidy, the GM tax grab and let people have it and buy a Tesla. Cheaper.
Jim Higgins wrote:

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