Toyota aims to replace GM as the largest automaker in the world

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Even people who know their shit don't know everything there is to know.
On Sun, 23 May 2004 10:00:59 GMT, "Charles Bendig"


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True!
But I know that Toyota isn't perfect, and they flood the market by: Dumping" like Nissan was fined for, Ford was Fined for. So fleets buy the car at below dealer cost, and the dealer gets their profit from the holdback money.
So they reached the market share they did by:
One: Dumping Two: Giving somewhat better customer service. (I've heard horror stories) Three: By covering up defects like brakes, head gaskets, sludging, transmission problems out the ass! Four: Avoiding NHTSA recalls by doing cars customers complained about before it reached the NHTSA threshold for a recall. Five: Americans who don't care that our economy is going to fail if they keep buying foreign, and we'll all be panhandlers!
Refinish King

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On Sun, 23 May 2004 21:22:13 -0400, "Refinish King"

There used to be one US economy. Now there are two. The Wall Street one and the one everyday people deal with. It seems as if the better the 1st one does the worse off the 2nd one is.
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You mean those 'Wall Street' companies that provide all those jobs in the US, and the 'everyday people' that own most of their individual stocks? ;)
mike hunt
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On Mon, 24 May 2004 11:47:32 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@mailcity.com wrote:

Most every day people own very little stock if any, and instead their living comes from wages or salaries. Wages and salaries come from jobs.
People who's almost entire (if not all) income is based on one of the following sources are not every day type people, and are a minority. A fairly small minority:
1. Profit from owned business 2. Dividend payments from ownership of stock in a business 3. Capital gains from selling assets at a higher price than paid for 4. Other financial activities outside of wages or salaries
Sure I've heard Bush say almost half of Americans "own stock." It fails to consider that the amount of stock owned my most Americans is insignificant as relates to income potential. Again, wages and salaries are where most Americans get most of their money, and by a wide margin.
The problem is, more and more, those wall street companies are using labor overseas and not American labor. So the result is more and more, increased profitability for the Wall street companies at the same time many Americans are loosing their livelihood. The effect this will tend to have over time is to balance out labor costs between Americans, and the rest of the world; including the 3rd world. That means those in the 3rd world will experience a better situation than the miserable one they face now (which isn't saying much) and Americans (and other 1st world workers) will have greatly diminished livelihood. In fact, due to the ability to use child labor, sweatshops, unsafe work environments etc in 3rd world countries, Americans may actually eventually be worth less in labor. Oh yeah, I forgot polluting with impunity. That's always a plus for industry too.
All this leads to a 2 class society. Those with wealth, and those who have to bend over backwards for the scraps from their tables. Much the way it was in early American history in the days of the industrial revolution and the robber barons. I don't want to see things go back to that. I'm no socialist, but unbalanced and unbridled capitalism has many shortcomings too.
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In the first place you would not be using a computer if not for the stock market. Where in the world do you think the money comes from that provides those jobs, wages and salaries? One reason more companies are moving jobs overseas is to compete with low cost foreign competitors exporting to the US. Why is it OK for the American consumer to seek lower prices buying products from over seas, made by non American tax paying companies that pay low wages and need not meet any of our stringent safety and environmental laws and need not bow to the tort lawyers? Why then is it NOT OK for companies to seek lower cost oversee, as well, to stay in business and keep at least some jobs in the US? Many people other than those you think benefit from the stock market. You life, property as auto insurance rates would be much higher if the insurance companies did not invest in the market. The small business owner might not still be in business if he could not have sold stock. People that work for him would be out of a job. Many retired blue collar workers could not retire if not for the income from their own stock or the stocks owned their pension plan. Your state and local taxes would need to be higher to pay all the state and municipal employees pensions if they did not invest in the market. To top it off if you SS taxes had been invested in the market from age 18 to 65 you would be a multi-millionaire today with no need for the handout from the government that many seek. The list goes on. You need to take the 'Capitalism 101' course then get back to us.
mike hunt
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On Mon, 24 May 2004 16:14:23 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@mailcity.com wrote:

Mike, you have completely misunderstood me apparently. No where did I say capitalism was bad. In fact I actually believe in and approve of it! The problem I have is with those who kneel at the altar of capitalism, sing only its praises, acknowledge none of its faults, and like to credit everything to it (eg. using this computer).
The fact is the stock market is a tool or vehicle of trade (one of many). Money (currency) of course is probably the most important and basic tool to facilitate trade for example. There are others as well. Without the stock market, without money even, trade still takes place. These tools help to enhance & improve trade, and they do so BIG TIME. I fully understand that and never disputed it. You set up a straw man for me. But anyway such tools are a RESULT of the trade of goods and services. The stock market does not create the goods and services. The labor of people and materials they work with do that. It is the labor of man and the thought bent to it that ultimately gets credit for all we have (that is not found naturally laying in front of us which is credited to God or whatever theory you hold).
I take umbrage to your slam at me that I do not understand economics. The fact is I do. I also notice that you utterly failed to address my point that most Americans get most of their money from wages and salaries (ie. they work for a living), and that loosing good paying jobs or replacing them with poor paying jobs without benefits is hurting the every day American. This is happening even with the "economy" getting good marks simply because Wall street is showing good profit. Good profits for companies on Wall street no longer automatically implies good times all around. It did to a greater extent when those companies of Wall street hired Americans to produce their goods and perform their services. That is when "trickle down" works, and has to a large extent in the past. Things are changing though. By American companies using foreign labor, it is breaking the trickle down process for Americans. Things are now trickling away or over, not down. And this trickle is just a trickle compared to the wealth that businesses used to share with their American workers.
So yeah, if you are fortunate enough to own enough stock that it can support you, without having a decent job or a job at all, then the economics of Wall street is all you need to be concerned about. (Heck, it's even cooler if you don't have to pay any tax on your dividend income! Under the right circumstances it might even mean you have to pay NO income tax.) But, if you're like most Americans who need a decent job to get through the day to day, then it hurts when your one manufacturing job was lost but replaced by "two" part time fast food type jobs etc., each of which has no benefits. As a side note to unemployment stats, remember, those who do not find work after 6 months are no longer counted among the unemployed. Also, part time jobs without benefits are still counted as a "job" when it comes to net jobs lost or gained. In my state, we have lost an average of about a million manufacturing jobs EACH year in just the last 3 to 4 years to foreign labor. Good jobs, many of which people affected have replaced with less desirable jobs or some form of government assistance.
Yes it is good that Wall street does well. Yes capitalism is a good tool to improve trade and bring benefits to many. But please, if you think all has to be wonderful because it's sunny on Wall street, then I don't think you're seeing the whole picture. Probably because you are kneeling at the altar of capitalism instead of standing up and looking around for yourself.
I suppose I didn't need to put in that last sentence, but after your Economics 101 comment, I thought I'd just leave it in.
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Where did you get the idea fleets can buy vehicles at a price less than at which a dealer can buy vehicles? That would be a violation of franchise law. Fleets can NOT buy directly from the manufacture, they must buy their vehicle from dealerships. The fleet discount is $400 on a Taurus. Even if there is a special price concession offered to a dealer that has a large order for similarly equipped vehicles, like those vehicles offered to government entities, all dealers car then receive that same concession as well. If the fleet buys something other than a fleet equipped model they can generally save more money buying at retail less the currently available rebates that generally do not apply to fleet specific models.
mike hunt
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On Mon, 24 May 2004 11:40:21 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@mailcity.com wrote:

Franchise law? You mean franchise agreement / contract (enforcable through civil court, not criminal) right? I ask this not to be a smart alec, but in case there actually IS franchise law.
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Yes Virginia there is a Santa Clause, as well as state and as federal franchise laws. There would be not contracts without laws. The feds use their right to regulate interstate commerce to do most anything they want, even telling the manufacture how many miles per gallon their cars must achieve ;)
mike hunt
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On Mon, 24 May 2004 14:30:25 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@mailcity.com wrote:

Figures.
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That is through the EPA!
You uninformed person!
CAFE's are regulated by one branch of the government. If a contract is broken such as a franchise agreement. It would be litigated through the civil courts!
Refinish King
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You are really funny. You are entitled to you own opinion, but not you own facts. I'll comment on this one time, in an effort to enlighten, not to debate since there is nothing to debate. The federal governments right to regulate interstate commerce, one of the few powers given to it by the states in the Constitution, is what the government used to create the EPA and the NHTSA, as well as most every area into which it has spread it power over the years.
One could not litigate any contract civilly without enabling legislation, or case law, on which to base the redress they are seeking. If there were no law there could be no illegal contract. If a franchise agreement were only between the parties, as you suggest, than the Ford Dealer Council in court could not have forced Ford Division of Ford Motor company to sell off the company owned stores they were accumulating by buying back franchises, which they did several year ago.
Hope that clears things up a bit for you.
mike hunt
Refinish King wrote:

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Mike, I was just asking for clarifiaction. You gave it. Thanks. Oh yeah, don't forget the "provide for the general welfare" clause.
On Tue, 25 May 2004 19:06:40 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@mailcity.com wrote:

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wrote:

There certainly is. It varies by state, but there are extensive laws regarding the relationship between mfg. and dealer under franchise arrangements.
John
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Both GM & Ford offer a fleet buying program. You purchase fleet equiped vehicals thru dealers with a commerical sales department. Fleet cars may have some option packages not availible to the regular consumer (such as a combination of option groups).
Fleet sales include Goverment, State, & Local. As well as businesses. No matter if it's a taxi service, or a large construction company.
Fleet sales are Importaint to both GM & Ford. Which is why each has dealers that specialize in such. Often larger fleet dealers will have a seperate area of the dealership for fleet & commercial sales. Charles
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You weren't an auto salesman:
working with the fleet sales facilitator at the automaker. Were you?
I was, the fleet got the car below dealer cost, we got the profit through the holdback at what the dealer would normally buy the car at, if it were for a sale or lot stock.
So please don't tell me what I know or not.
Thank you!
Refinish King

name
No-No.
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You are correct I was not a salesman. I was only the Group Sales Manager for one of the largest multi-franchised dealership groups on the east cost, that sold about every brand you can think of, in six states. The Group sold hundreds of thousands of vehicles to fleets all over the eastern cost during my ten years as GSA. What would I know about fleet sales. LOL
mike hunt
Refinish King wrote:

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I think you're full of shit:
Because fleet sales aren't given to a group sales manager, who's too busy building up the morale of the troops to: "Stick the cars up the asses of everyone that comes on the lot today"
So, don't pretend to be something you're not. Six state multi franchised Mega-Dealer? I haven't seen one in about ten years, maybe you helped them go bankrupt!
Refinish King

argument,
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I don't know about "dumping"......
I've shopped Toyota and Nissan a few times.
It was always; This is the list price, PLUS ADM ( additional dealer markup ) "We don't want your trade-in" Take it or leave it !
And that turned me off.
On Sun, 23 May 2004 21:22:13 -0400, "Refinish King"

<rj>
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