Just got my 2000 GT back from the dealer. The RPM's would drop all the way down and I'd have to give it gas at idle to keep it going. I figured it was TP issue .
Turns out it was the air intake vale. Two bolts hold the thing in and it is right out in the open. Probably would take about ten minutes to put one in.
The dealer charged me $ 201.17 for the two parts: F8VZ*9F715*AB (Throtle Air By-Pa) and XR3Z*9E498*AG (Connector)
"Cracker-jack techs".... LOL Good one !!! The part that was replaced is directly responsible for the idle control. I took the car in for an idle problem. It sould be the first thing that they check or at least one of the first things. I'm always the first to give a tech the benifit of the doubt because I used to fix cars myself at a VW place during my first two years of college way back in 1986-1988. Lots of air-cooled bugs and the like. I always remember how just about every customer wanted to know why the repairs would cost so much. They all wanted to pay twenty bucks to have a clutch job done.
In my case here, $ 567.00 labor to diagnose an obvious problem and then do ten minutes of remove-replace is totally out of hand. It was a straight-up rip-off !!!!!
Most likely, the tech spent a ton of time chasing the wrong thing and they made you pay for it. I would first find out what that job should have cost with another dealership. Then have a talk with the service manager. If the prices are that far out of line, you might have to go up the chain of command to the general manager or even the owner to get a compromise. Did it set a code?
"Michael J. Delaglio" wrote in news:wxD0f.41023$ snipped-for-privacy@fe09.lga:
Write the GM of the dealership and tell him/her how angry you are and that they've lost a customer for life.
Include copies of the repair including the cost. Tell the GM that the job was a complete rip-off considering what was done.
Also tell him/her that if it took that long to diagnose the problem, they've got morons working as techs there and you won't be returning simply because of that.
Finally, tell them that you're going to complain to corporate about the entire thing, and you'll be using the GM's name.
If you don't get a reply, you at least have the small satisfaction of informing corporate that they've got some rip-off artists at work.
If you get a reply, perhaps they'll try to make amends or at least offer you some kind of compensation. Might be worth a shot.
Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
What is the shop/dealer hourly labor rate? How long was the car in the shop? Any tax?
First, you said it was a dealer. Dealers, generally, have higher rates than independent shops. Many businesses which sell items, make up the bulk of the business income from after market repair.
Shop should have a schedule (either book or computer program) of time to repair by item.
So, you should have had a computer (probably) diagnosis for $X (since we do not know if they have a flat diagnosis rate, how long it took to diagnose, or what the shop hourly rate is). Of course, if it didn't show up in computer diagnosis then it's down to manual trace. The time for that is not set. (Lots of good mechanics out there, but more and more, computers are dumbing them down.)
Then, once the problem is identified, it might only take 10 minutes to actually repair, but the schedule might say 45 minutes.... for part "A". It might say 25 minutes for part "B". These are billed individually. Just because the mechanic can do both within the 40 minutes listed for part "A", don't expect that to be it.
On top of that, many shops charge to the next higher half hour or hour. This you need to know BEFORE you take it in. The hourly rate might be $80 per hour.... or any portion of that hour. So, you pay $80 for an hour, or $80 for 15 minutes, or $160 for 1 hour and 7 minutes.
So, now you have Diagnosis unk hr @ $80/hr ...................................$ unk Part "A".......................................................$101.17 Part "A" 40 min @ $80/hr ..................................$ 80.00 Part "B" $100 ...............................................$100.00 Part "B" 25 min @ $80/ht ..................................$ 80.00 ......................................................Sub T $361.17+ ..........................................CA Tax 7.75% $ 27.99+ ......................................................Sub T $389.16+ ...................................................You paid $768.17 ................................................Difference $379.00
I'll take a guess that your car was in a dealer shop for at least 4 hours... your labor only works out to $141.75 per hour. Steep, but not unheard of in some localities. (Go to someplace like San Francisco and have a car repaired in the city.)
Not to say you didn't get ripped off... this is all just to give you a better idea of how the system works, and why you MUST check it out for yourself BEFORE they get their hands on your ride.
Now, if it was me, I would be back talking to the service manage. I'd get some answers as to what the schedule says for the repair(s), and what their shop rates are. I have had service managers look over my receipt and say.... 'well, gee, it appears we made an error. Let me refigure this. We have a new employee in the accounting section.' And a few minutes later, I get a refund for $X and an apology for the error the "new employee" made when totaling up the bill. Did they do anything wrong? Usually, no. But the last thing most shops want is bad PR. Better to lose a few bucks on job, and not lose customers who will be repeats.
According to the bill it reports that they retreived codes of P0171, P0174 & P1507. All must have related to the idle control valve. Replacement of that valve calls for less then one full hour; $94.00 MAX !!!
To be honest, when they called to give me the total bill with tax of $
824.33, I was thinking exactly they same thing that you did. I thought that they might have removed the plastic intake manifold thinking it was cracked only to find out that it was somthing else. When I got the car back, the first thing I did was to check to see if the intake might have come out. I saw no idication of that.
They just decided to rip me off.
I'm going to call the maintenance manager tommorow and question him/her about it.
No question. I'm going to start by calling the service manager and question the labor charge. I got my first new Mustang from this dealer back in 1990. It was an LX 5.0. I traded in to them in 2000 and got a new GT. So far that makes two cars and plenty of maintenance tickets I have given to them for the past fifteen years. My thanks from them is to get ripped-off in the extream.
Hey, Spike. Thanx for your detailed explanation of how the rates work. I'm up on all that myself because I worked full time hours as a certified mechanic for a VW/German car repair shop for just over two years back in
1986-1988 while I was in my first two years of college. When the college work got to heavy in my third year, I stopped working at the garage. We specialized in air cooled German cars, including vintage Porce models. We also did all the four cylender fule injected VW's like the Rabbit. I did general maintenance/repair work as well and engine and trans rebuilds. We had a fixed labor rate there per hour.
The area that I live in, northeast NJ is an expensive area as far as rates go. The Ford dealer that just did the repair on my 2000 GT has a labor rate of $94.00/hr. They got a code on the problem. Even if there was no code, and there were codes, that problem should not take any great skill or experience to figure out. I mean, come on. It was taken in for an idle problem. The car would stall dead unless you kept on the gas. The first thing to check is the bloody idle control valve.
Given that they had codes, and that it was an obvious problem with an obvious solution, I cant see them calling it more then one full hour to correct the problem. I'd pay $94.00 or may be at the most twice that. Not $
567.00 in labor !!!
I know when I worked as a pro it was twenty years ago and systems werent so fancy and all, but I'd equate diagnosing and changing the idle control valve on a 2000 GT with diagnosing/replacing an air flow sensor on an old fuel injected VW. It isnt too tuff of a job. I couldent imagine charging over five hours of labor for a fifteen minute job.
You mentioned the prior employment, but that does not mean you understand how the accounting is done. I know a number of mechanics who can tune a race car at Indy by ear, but have no idea what it takes to keep the team on the track.
The symptoms you described were, on my 91 TransAM GTA, a mechanic's nightmare. No matter what the computer said (when it could detect a problem) corrected the situation. In the end, it was not the idle control, but both cats had gone at the same time. New cats, problem gone... a few thousand dollars later.
Labor, not unusually, can run more than parts. It's pretty hard to stand and look over the mechanic's shoulder with a stop watch, and I have yet to see a shop where the mechanic uses a time card to begin and end each task.
But, the schedule should give you an idea of what they billed for. As you should know, there is also "down time" while waiting for whatever... parts to be delivered if not in stock, a lift to be freed up, the union required coffee break/meal break, etc. It all adds up. And $94, that's not too bad in a lot of areas, but it does add up.
I no longer have the GTA. You can see what I have gone back to... a car from my early 20s that I can actually work on without the need for a $10K computer to tell me what is wrong. And today, I even looked at a VW Bug. I can follow a flow chart to trace down a problem. Then, when in doubt, start replacing parts with the cheapest thing to replace. Too often people get a $400 radiator when all they needed was a $6 thermostat. And the "dumbing down" I mentioned is a growing problem. Go to a parts store and the clerk has no idea what you want or what it does but he/she can look it up in a book. I saw it in my step son. He could do the work as long as he could use his calculator. Ask him how and why something works a certain way and he has no idea.
Colleges and technical schools (not all, of course) are turning out mechanics who can turn a wrench and change a part... as long as the computer tells them which part needs the work. Even my sister believed that the only way to do accounting was exactly as she was taught in college. When she went to work she kept losing very good jobs. And it's all part of the "throw away economy". Cars are headed the same way as cell phones, computers, etc. When it breaks, toss it and get a new one with new bells and whistles.
Again, I'd go back to the service manager, and politely but firmly inquire how they figured $200 in parts was going to total over $700, for what should have taken about a half hour for any skilled mechanic.
I lived in upstate NY, and Cape Cod. The NE ain't cheap. Good luck.
I'm just wondering if the person who inputted the cost missed the decimal place. Sounds like the labor should be $56.70. If that's not the case consider a small claims action. I did that a number of years ago when a GM dealer who IMO spent excessive time and did unnecessary work. They probably won't spend the dollars to have a lawyer in court (you will get a default judgment) but be prepared to argue your case just in case. When you pay premium rates you expect premium service, period. No ifs, ands or buts.
Maybe he doesn't understand how the accounting is done, but it did sound like he had a decent idea of where the problem area was.
Labor usually does run more then parts and of course no one is there with a stop watch every time, but there are "book" rates for every task.
But you don't pay for down time. You pay for working time. Hell if you paid for down time there could one helluva bill when it is an out of stock or hard to find part. If this particular dealership, or should I say Stealership charges for when their guys our on break or waiting for resources to be freed up I'd fine a new place to go in a heartbeat.
Well with somethings it is easier & cheaper to toss them and but new vice paying for a repair, but a car sure as hell isn't one of them.
"Joe" wrote in message news:CBE0f.7450$ snipped-for-privacy@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
I called the service manager this morning and went over everything with him. I stressed that the problem was obvious to find and that it should take no longer then twenty minutes to remove-replace the idel control valve/connector. I then asked him how they came up with $ 567.00 in labor. I told him that sounds more like a labor charge to replace an entire air intake manifold and not an idle control valve/connector. I was expecting him to give me an argument. He reviewed what he had on the ticket and said "holey smokes... that dosent look right to me either." He then invited me back to the dealer during my lunch hour later today to get a credit on my Amex for two hours of labor. That will bring the labor charge down to just below $340.00 . He's calling it one full hour of diagnostic time, one full hour of repair time... and then... one additional hour taken when they realized there was also a bad vacum hose causing a problem after they had installed the air valve. I was aware that they had to put on a new vacuum hose, but I was not told before that it was a diagnostic issue. I thought they picked the bad vacuum hose out during the replace of the air valve. They didnt even give a parts charge for the vacuum hose. They writer just mentioned it when I picked the car up. The official report that I'm getting from the service manager now states that they had to spend time to discover the bad vacuum line AFTER they had installed the air valve and connector. He states that they actually got an additional code due to the bad vacuum hose once the air valve and connector were installed. So, they have me on three hours of labor that I can't dispute.
So... They are going to credit me with two hours of labor. Better then nothing, but I think the bit he gave me about the vacuum line is questionable. I also think that they didn't make any mistake about the labor charge they gave me at first. They just decided to take me to the cleaners. Makes me wonder how many people are getting jacked at car dealers. To be honest though, I've been going to this dealer for the past fifteen years without any problems. This is the first time I got snaked.
"Michael J. Delaglio" wrote in news:39R0f.33467$ snipped-for-privacy@fe12.lga:
Interesting. I'd still talk to the service manager and/or general manager and tell them your thoughts - that you've had generally good experiences for years and now all of a sudden this.
If you've been going there for 15 years, you've got to know somebody there. Talk to them and see what's up.
If not, then I'd tell the SM and GM that if this treatment is an indication of how service works from now on, you'll be shopping elsewhere for service. Their reaction to that statement will tell you if they're interested in retaining your business. If they're not, then tell them you'll be relating all this to Ford corporate and they can go screw off.
Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
"Joe" wrote in message news:wuS0f.44$ snipped-for-privacy@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Hiya, Joe...
I went to the dealer on my lunch hour today. I met with the service manager and he had the business office credit my Amex for two hours of labor. That is $188.00 not including the tax. When I asked him for the reason I was charged five hours labor in the first place, he told me that they "went by the book" on my bill.
One hour to diagnose idle control valve. (F8VZ*9F715*AB)
One hour to diagnose the connector (XR3Z*9E498*AG)
One hour to replace the idle control valve (F8VZ*9F715*AB)
One hour to replace the connector (XR3Z*9E498*AG)
One more hour to diagnose a bad vacuum hose.
No carge to put in a vacuum hose.
Five hours total.
Although he was giving me discount on the labor, he said they went by the book. I reminded him that it was an obvious problem and practicly speaking, the remove-replace should not have taken more then twenty minutes. That included the vale itself and the connector. Both of which should be considered as part of the same job and not two seperate diagnostics and repairs. I couldent get an answer on what vacuum line had failed. He just pointed out that they got a code after the replacement of the idle valve that was being cauded by the vaccum hose. So, it is a legit labor/diagnostic charge of one full hour. I pointed out to him that in the past fifteen years I purchaced two new cars from them and have gone there for all service including oil changes. I went on to explain I have never been charged "One hour for the tech to start the car, one hour for the tech to put the car on the lift, one hour for the tech to lift the hood, one hour for the tech to hook it up to the computer.. And all for the same problem. I read off the total bill again and said... Look... your charging me EIGHT HUNDRED DOLLARS to fix an obvious problem that should take any skilled tech no more then twenty minutes to complete. You want five hours labor to do twenty minutes of work ??? I told him they charged less money to replace an itake manifold on a friends 4.6L only a few months ago. I told him that I felt they had "taken me to the cleaners" regardless of the "by the book" business. He felt that the discount shows they want to keep my business. I havent decided if I want to go back there again. They did have a point about "going by the book" as far as itemizing the charges, but a strong case could be made that it was all the same problem and not three seperate issues each calling for one hour of diagnostic and one hour of labor for remove-replace.
"Michael J. Delaglio" wrote in news:FlW0f.57$ snipped-for-privacy@fe09.lga:
Michael, in essence the SM is telling you that you should return there for service (and feel good about it!) because they knocked off $188 from an $800 repair that anyone who used common sense in the first place could've/shoud've fixed for $300 max. His entire justification is that the repair was "by the book". I still say that if they go "by the book" without actually thinking about the repair, then the SM is either a moron or he simply isn't interested in true customer service.
You probably won't get any further with the SM, so if you're up to it, talk to the GM. If he/she can't be bothered or gives you the same story, then it's your choice. Personally, at that point I'd fire off nasty letters and never return. However, if you feel that the GM really wants to keep your business, make him/her an offer: Tell him/her that you'll pay $X for the repair because it's a fair price. You'll have to determine what's fair for the repair.
Your main problem is that the service department didn't use an ounce of brain power and relied strictly on "the book". This escalated the bill by several hundred dollars. Your can ask the GM this question: "Why should I have service done by people who don't use common sense and obviously don't care about trying to save the customer money?" You can also indicate that you'll steer your friends clear of the service department.
In short, I'd tell the GM that if he/she wants to retain your business, they'll further credit you $X (you have to determine the amount and it has to be fair). If not, be prepared to walk right then and there.
BTW, why didn't they credit back the tax on those two hours?
Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
Hey, Joe... I have no idea why they didn't credit for the tax. I don't think I'll get any further with the dealer GM. I accepted the deal they gave and I'll leave it at that. There is another Ford dealer that is local to me and I'll probably take my car there in the future. The parts price they charged me was right on. They over did it with the labor to the tune of five hours when it should probably be no more then two hours MAX and that is only considering they had to retrive codes and then do the repair. They wound up charging me three hours in the end. They got me for an extra $94.00 then the job should have cost. Their reward will be that they wont get any more of my money. They will loose more then I will now. My 2000 GT only has 33,000 miles on it. 40k service, 50k service and so on... They wont get any of it.
Generally speaking, when you accepted the refund made by the SM, that's the end of it. I believe you will find this is the case under standard contract law. You can still raise a complaint with the GM, and if the GM wants to placate you further with an added refund, that is a bonus. Don't expect it. The GM is going to talk to the SM and when he learns you have already been given a refund which you accepted as a resolution, he's not apt to give you more. In future, if the SM were to offer a refund of say 10% or whatever, and you did not feel this was sufficient, then that would be the time to take the issue higher. Essentially, you got what you got, AND you learned a lesson (hopefully). Also, while you have made prior purchases there, two cars is really nothing to a dealer. If they lose a fleet sale, THEN it's a problem. In future, I would track down a really good local shop for repairs, and when and if you ever make another purchase, you might consider driving that extra mile to deal with someone else. Luck to ya.
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