headlights on all day

Richard wrote:

That's not quite true as written. The world *has* automotive lighting standards. Two of them: USA and ECE. Most of the world requires or accepts ECE-compliant automotive lighting and prohibits USA-compliant equipment; the US prohibits ECE and requires USA.

and parking lights and

Yes.

's and front marker lights

Yes, but there's a terminology problem here. What we are talking about in this thread as "city lights" or "parking lights" are properly called

*front position lamps* in ECE regulations and "parking lamps" in USA regulations. There is another function, properly called "parking lamps" in ECE regulations. This is the left-side-only / right-side-only front and rear lighting that can be switched on by the driver, as called for in the German road code (StVZO) when the vehicle is parked in certain kinds of streets after dark. ECE "parking lamps" are generally required to be white to the front and red to the rear, but may in some configurations be amber.

the front and red in the

USA and ECE regulations both require red rear reflectors.

USA regulations have required amber front and red rear sidemarker lights _and_ reflectors on all vehicles since 1/1/70. In addition to improving side conspicuity by displaying the presence, position and direction of vehicles circulating in traffic after dark, the sidemarker reflectors serve the same function as the ECE "parking lamps" (i.e., provide parked-vehicle conspicuity in dark narrow roads). The US method is better in this case, for it is passive -- no action required by the driver to switch on -- and it consumes no power.

ECE regulations require sidemarker lights on vehicles over 6m long, and permit but don't require them on vehicles under 6m long. They are required to emit amber light, except that a vehicle's rearmost sidemarkers may emit red light if they are grouped, combined, or reciprocally incorporated with the taillamp, the rear end-outline marker lamp, the rear fog lamp, the brake lamp, or it is grouped or has part of the light emitting surface in common with the rear reflector. Most ECE-spec vehicles that have sidemarkers have amber front and rear ones. The new Citro=EBn C6 has amber front and rear sidemarkers even though the rear ones are built into the rear lamp cluster (and therefore could legally emit red light). But, many vehicles which in their US-spec configurations create the red rear sidemarker function by means of a wraparound red lens providing a "side view" of the bulb, likewise have the same setup in their ECE-spec configurations. Many BMW and Mercedes models have such a setup.

As for side retroreflectors: They are, as already mentioned, mandatory in the US on all vehicles. Amber front and intermediate, red rearmost. They are mandatory under ECE regulations on vehicles over 6m long, optional on vehicles under 6m long, and the ECE color requirement is amber, but the rearmost side retroreflector may be red if it is grouped or has part of the light emitting surface in common with the rear position lamp, the rear end-outline marker lamp, the rear fog lamp, the brake lamp or the red rearmost sidemarker lamp. Many vehicles which in their US-spec configurations have the red side retroreflector built into the side of the rear lamp cluster lens also have this configuration in their ECE models. Examples abound from BMW, Mercedes, Chrysler, Volvo and other makers.

mber rear turn signals > to make the vehicles look more American. BMW/Mini,= VW/Audi just don't care about providing this > safety feature to the drive= rs of North America.

I agree with you that amber rear turn signals are an utterly basic component of a proper automotive lighting system, and I agree with you that it's shameful to treat safety devices as stylistic toys, but having just returned the other day from a large automotive lighting technology congress in France, I can say you haven't got the whole story. I spoke with the BMW exterior lighting chief, and he told me they wanted to use the same type of amber rear signal on their US-market E90 3er as they use everywhere else in the world, but the US DOT objected. This type of "hidden" amber rear signal uses a clear bulb with a green plastic balloon over it, all behind a rose-red (dark pink) lens. The result is a lamp that looks red when off, but shines amber when on. It's subtractive color mixing. The technique has been in use for about 13 years or so -- no problem, such signals work fine and don't notably degrade with age or use. But, the DOT said the green plastic for the balloon was not on the list of approved plastic materials for use in car lights, and they kept saying "no!" or simply stalling and not answering at all regardless of how much test data BMW submitted. Finally DOT said "OK", but by then it was too late; in order to meet production schedules, BMW had to make an alternate choice for the US market. They could've gone to a plain amber lens, or a clear lens with amber bulb, but for whatever reason (probably related to tooling cost), the red lens was their emergency "Plan B". This is the same reason why the first-year Audi A8 had these green-ballon/pink-lens/amber-light rear turn signals, but subsequent years had red lenses: DOT bitched about the green balloons being made out of an unapproved plastic.

The situation is different with Audi: On some of their present car designs, they couldn't have an amber rear turn signal without the red brake/tail lamps being too small to comply with US surface area requirements, so the only choices were to redesign the rear lamps entirely (larger - not approved by the stylists) or have a red rear turn signal for the North American market. This is the same reason why older BMW 5er wagons had red rear turn signals. Other Audi models have plenty of rear lamp area to have an amber turn signal, but as Audi's chief of exterior lighting explained, "if some of your vehicles have red and some have amber, this does not look like a coherent line of vehicles. I don't like red rear signals, but they're just as legal as amber in North America."

I didn't get a chance to ask about the MINI's red rear signals; that's neither a materials nor a surface area problem.

Honda, Toyota and Subaru are actually markedly *worse*, together with Ford, GM and Chrysler: All their models have rear lamp designs with ample area for amber rear signals, and they don't tend to use materials that DOT gets itchy about -- they use red signals in North America for specious "customer preference" reasons (have you ever been asked to vote?) or because red ones are cheaper to make and "show us the pile of dead bodies indicating that amber is better!".

here in North America.

No, they aren't. They play with it, back and forth, red to amber and back to red, as a stylistic toy. The newest Jeeps all have red, after many years of using amber, for instance.

Red ones would be almost marginally tolerable if they were all the combination brake/turn type, but immediately-adjacent, colorimetrically- and photometrically-identical separate red brake and turn lights duelling with each other make it very difficult to acquire the vehicle's signalling messages quickly and accurately in traffic. It's known that following drivers react significantly more quickly and accurately to a vehicles *brake* lamps if the vehicle's turn signals are amber rather than red, but nobody's bothered doing a study in actual traffic, so while all the regulators know red ones are dumb and amber ones are good, the automakers' lobbyists prevent legislating for amber rear signals in North America. "Show us the pile of dead bodies!" (the Ford guy actually said "It's the only light that flashes on the back of the car, why does it need to be a different color?".)

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern
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Very simple: COST! High beam headlamps aren't frequently used, so there's less impact on the effective useful life of a device a driver might be unhappy with if it were to last a shorter time than he expected (ask any VW Beetle owner how he likes having to replace low beam headlamp bulbs every other month). Also, with high beam DRLs, there's no need to worry about turn signal intensity.

Well, high beam DRLs don't work very well (too much intensity straight ahead, not enough intensity out to the sides), but fog lamps are not legal as DRLs in the US, only in Canada. Low beams don't make very good DRLs at all. If one is constrained to using only the lighting equipment on a non-DRL vehicle, without adding any new lighting devices, then the front turn signal DRL is definitely the best pick, all things considered.

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Fred W wrote:

Aren't. It's robustly demonstrated in all the world's DRL studies that most of the safety benefit from DRLs is in reduction of *angular* collisions with pedestrians, cyclists and other vehicles -- not in head-on or near-head-on collisions. It is essentially impossible to produce a lamp that gives good high beam performance at full voltage, AND can be run at reduced intensity such that it produces a wide enough cone of illumination to give significant improvements in angular conspicuity without producing far too much glare on axis. High-beam DRLs tend to illuminate at the maximum allowable intensities on axis (= excessive glare) but at or near the minimum allowable intensities laterally off-axis (= insufficient angular conspicuity, therefore minimal actual safety performance benefit). In addition, high-beam DRLs share the disadvantages of all headlamp-based DRLs: They consume so much power that their use is akin to opening the refrigerator door, pulling up a chair and using the fridge light to read a book, and they are too often improperly used instead of full-voltage headlamps after dark, because they create the appearance of a light beam in front of the car -- drivers and cops often can't tell the difference, or don't care. Come up to Canada sometime and see for yourself! This use of headlamp-based DRLs after dark creates various unsafe situations: Cars unlit from the sides and rear, cars producing much too much glare for other road users and too much backdazzle in bad weather, etc.

Low-beam DRLs have the energy-inefficiency problem, as well as the conundrum that a good low-beam light distribution is opposite what is needed for a good DRL light distribution.

And, there is the bulb life problem with all headlamp-based DRLs. The effective decrease in lifespan pushes makers to use long-life bulbs, which give reduced luminance and poorer beam focus, resulting in diminished headlamp performance after dark.

The best DRLs are functionally-specific ones. The second-best ones are the front turn signals burned full time.

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

They are on the newest 3er in Europe, and will be in North America, too, soon.

As has been pointed out to you, "city lights" = parking lamps = front position lamps, and they are mandatory on all motor vehicles under all worldwide regulations.

Incorrect. They are supposed to be *conspicuous*. Not the same.

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108, Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108, and ECE Regulation 48 all require front position lamps ("parking lamps" in North America, "city lights" colloquially mostly by North Americans talking about European cars). Ergo, these lamps are required all over the world.

The lamps you describe are not called "running lights" anywhere in the world. They are referred to as "front position lamps" in international ECE regulations, and "parking lamps" in North American regulations. They are required to remain illuminated with headlamps for the reason you state (vehicle position and width indication in the event of a burned out headlamp).

Incorrect. The maximum permissible axial intensity for DRLs anywhere in the world is 7,000 candela, for North American high-beam DRLs. The MINIMUM allowable axial intensity for high beam headlamps anywhere in the world is 20,000 candela, for the very weakest type of headlamps (those equipped with HB1/9004 bulbs in North America; those equipped with R2 non-halogen bulbs in ECE countries).

Incorrect. Regardless of the presence, absence or degree of discomfort due to glare, there is ALWAYS reduction in visual acuity due to glare.

You are again confusing glare with conspicuity. They are not the same. By your logic, ALL vehicle lamps would have to be painfully glaring in order to be effective --- turn signals, brake lights, etc.

Your doubt notwithstanding, ECE Regulation 87 (Daytime Running Lamps for Motor Vehicles) and ECE Regulation 48 (Installation and Wiring of Lighting and Signalling Devices) do not permit the use of high beams as DRLs, at any intensity level. ECE regulations are in force virtually everywhere in the world except North America. QED.

You may want to spend some time on Wikipedia at the articles entitled "Headlamp", "Automotive Lighting", and "Daytime Running Lamp". You can probably get a great many of your misunderstandings and incorrect conclusions cleared up with just those three articles. If that's not to your liking, then I recommend spending a couple of weeks' worth of 9-5 days at the UMTRI library in Ann Arbor, MI.

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Thanks Dan, it's nice to see some authoritative responses on usenet.

Reply to
Richard Sexton

Side lights in the UK. Parking lights used to be a separate single bulb device mounted about the middle of the car with a clear lens to the front, red to the back. Some clipped on to the driver's door window. They were needed in any towns without street lighting - or more usually when it was switched off after a certain time at night. Very few if any these days, though.

The more modern German version which allows just one front and tail light for overnight parking etc would be legal in the UK as a parking light, but not all UK cars are so fitted.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Obsolete term that has been replaced in the most current versions of the UK regulations with "front position lamps". However, colloquial usage of "sidelights" to refer to the front position (US "parking") and rear position (US "tail") lamps is still common in the UK.

The UK "sidelight" terminology arose exactly as you describe, from the earlier devices that were permanently or temporarily mounted on the side of the car. They created a big terminology problem when side*marker* lights came along -- almost as big as the "driving lamp" problem.

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Yeal like central heating the last 1/3 will get their soon.

I remember those things.

Richard, expat.

Reply to
Richard Sexton

OK, I see what you are saying. But have any cars been mass produced with functionally specific DRLs? I am not aware of any. Or any that have used the front turn signals either for that matter. That would seem to be a best solution (without adding much cost to the car) if that is what is actually needed.

Reply to
Fred W

I agree. It appears I have been make all kinds of incorrect statements. I'll just shut up now...

I only wish Dan would frequent this newsgroup more often.

Reply to
Fred W

Gee thanks.

Reply to
Fred W

In the North American market at the moment:

-Chevrolet and GMC full-size pickup trucks since '99

-Chevrolet and GMC midsize pickups and derivatives since '01 or so

-High-end Audis

-Hummers

-Volvos with BiXenon headlamps

There are also many such vehicles in the rest-of-world ECE market, and there will soon be very many more, as DRLs compliant with ECE R87 will become mandatory across Europe in 2010.

In the whole North American market unless otherwise noted:

-Chevrolet and GMC full-size vans since 2003

-Chrysler minivans from 1996-2000 (std. Canada, optional US)

-Chrysler LeBaron & Imperial, 1990-1993 (Canada)

-Saturn Ion and other Saturn models

-Corvette C5 and C6

-Cadillac (all or most current models)

-Lincoln Zephyr (might be Canada only)

-Toyota trucks & SUVs (various models, might be Canada only)

-Ford Probe, 1990-end of production (Canada)

-Mazda Miata, 1990-1998 (std Canada, optional US)

Turn signal DRLs are not legal outside North America (ECE R87 requires them to emit white light).

And more I'm dysremembering right now

There is an inexpensive module available to activate front turn signal DRLs on most any vehicle.

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

*shock*

Usenet has changed a LOT since I left, as it seems!

Thanks for your comment,

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Interesting. I figured there had to be a catch somewhere to why the German manufactures were joining the DRL crowd. I assume separate designated DRLs will be required, not just headlights on 24/7.

- GM's F-body '97-

Glad to see you're back. I was beginning to give up on you, Daniel. ;-)

Ulf

Reply to
Ulf

LOL. You should have listened to the more educated on the subject. :-)

Why do you think I x-posted the thread to sci.engr.lighting...

Ulf

Reply to
Ulf

Ummm...that's exactly what he's doing, as it seems to me. No need to be smug about it, eh?

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

shut up now...

Sorry, I just love being right! Of course, I always am...

Ulf

Reply to
Ulf

You need to defeat the Daytime Running Lights.

This is folly in my mind, but you can do it if you want to.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

Thanks for that comprehensive response.

So Dan, which do you think is going to be more difficult; getting the UN to impose world peace, or getting the UN to reconcile differences between US and ECE lighting requirements in our lifetime?

Richard.

Reply to
Richard

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