2.7 Oil Sludge Problem

Yes, especially when the oil is changed every 3k or 3 months and use synthetic with the proper weight. Coasty

See recent posts on this Bill. There apparently were some modifications made that reduce the sludging tendency and that also make it less sensitive to the presence of sludge. Rumor is that the biggest changes began in the 2003 model year. The main changes are reported to be significantly reduced operating temperature and larger diameter oil gallery passages.

As Coasty mentioned, using synthetic oil in this engine should essentially eliminate the high-temperature sludge/varnish problem. At the very least make sure that any oil you use meets Chrysler Material Spec MS-6395, whether it's synthetic or non-synthetic.

Depending on which brand/type of synthetic is used, you definitely could extend the oil drain interval well past 3000 miles to help offset the additional cost of the synthetic, especially in the more recent model years.

I have a 2001 2.7 that will reach the 150K mile mark in another couple of days. Until recently it has had 3000 mile oil/filter changes with good quality non-synthetic oil (mainly Castrol GTX and Valvoline Maxlife High Mileage). I did two experimental 4000 mile runs this year with 2 different synthetics and had the oil analayzed at the end of each run. One synthetic, made by Shell, was pretty much at the end of it's life by 4000 miles. The other synthetic was Quaker State Q Advanced and it definitely had some life left in it at 4000 miles; I would say it could have gone another 1000 miles but that would have been it. In different engines (like the Chrysler 3.5L or nearly any other non-turbo engine), both of these oils would have gone a lot farther than 4000 miles before reaching the point they did in my 2.7.

My next move will be to move up a *true* synthetic like Mobil 1, Amsoil, Redline or Pennzoil Platinum and repeat the tests. These should go alot farther than the Shell or Quaker State synthetics did before they need changing, and should not leave any deposits if changed in time.

The 2.7L is hard on oil, no question about it. The newer ones are apparently less harsh than the older ones.

Phil

The one that I know first hand about is the addition of an in-line heat exchanger added to the PCV hose - steals heat from the coolant system to keep blow-by gases from condensing out and clogging up and dissolving the walls of the PCV hose, which they were prone to do. I think that change was made to productuon cars starting in either '00 or '01. It can be added to earlier ones (I added it to my '99 Concorde).

I have also read that the oil pump was upsized to provide better lubrication to the rear mains - that was also an early change - maybe '00.

Certainly there have been other changes that I don't know about that others can discuss.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Thanks for all the info. I'll start a gradual switch-over to synth. next oil change (I have GTX in it now.) This car has what might be the worst life - short drives in town and most of the time it barely reaches op. temp. Thanks, Bill

That's a bit of different situation then Bill. In your case, if you want, you could stick with straight non-synthetic and just change it frequently. Moisture and fuel dilution - both from short trips and low operating temps - contribute to low temperature sludging and loss of viscosity (thinning of the oil). The best remedy for this is frequent oil changes. You can minimize this to some degree by taking it out on the highway once or twice a week for a 10 - 20 mile spin. The type of driving you describe is classified as "Severe" service in the owner's manual, hence the more frequent oil change schedule.

In your case you aren't wearing out oil due to prolonged highway driving or prolonged stop and go driving in high outside temps - both of which shear the oil and lead to high temperature deposits (high temperature sludge/varnish). Those situations are where synthetic really has the most benefit.

Phil

Good poit. It's also the ideal situation for an additive like MMO or Sea Foam. I know some people are dead set against any additives. However, I look at it this way: I think it's bad practice in general to put a torniquette on your arm or leg, but there are certain situations in which it might just save your freakin' life! :)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

I've read a lot of the numerous posts concerning the sludge problem i

the 2.7's. I've noticed that many of the complaints Chrysler addresse were "up to the 2002" model year. Was the situation corrected/improve in the 02 TI Bill Bill chryseller has sludge problems mechanical problems and serious safet issues that people die from

cantcomprehend why people keep buying a lower than average vehicle thatsin the shop every so often from weather its a check engine light or transmissiomeanwhile at the same time its taken in the odometer only has 40-60.oookms on it not only

are chrysellers unreliable but they have serious safety issues thats! unexeptable by any standard i have come to the conclusion that people that buy these vehicles dont only do any research but usually buy them for there exterior looks that chry-seller try"s so hard to attract buyers with. well with chry-seller looks that can kill and breakdown still wanna chryseller anyone? No thanks i will stick with my choice Honda/Toyota/Nissan ;

-- johnin

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it not only

unexeptable by any standard i have come to the conclusion that people that buy these vehicles dont only do any research but usually buy them for there exterior looks that chry-seller try"s so hard to attract buyers with. well with chry-seller looks that can kill and breakdown still wanna chryseller anyone? No thanks i will stick with my choice Honda/Toyota/Nissan ;)

Say what you want, but I've got 240,000 km (149K miles) on mine and it runs like a switch watch. Bill Putney has 168K miles on his (Chrysler

300 w/2.7 Bill??). My brother put over 400,000 km (250K miles) on his mid-90's Intrepid. My Dad and my sister both have Intrepids - no problems with either of those. And my sister's boyfriend has an Intrepid

- no problems with his either. I had 5 Intrepids and one Chrysler Mini-van as company cars before I bought the Intrepid I have now. I had a transmission problem with one of them; not a hint of problem with any of the others. In southern Ontario, the District I worked in had around

35 Intrepids as company cars. I knew every single one of those guys and no one had any real problems with any of them. And some of those bone heads wouldn't get the oil changed until the leasing company called them and threatened them to get it done. 20 and 30,000 km between oil changes in some cases.

My sister had one or two sensors go bad on her '99 Intrepid; that's all in 7 years. I had an oil pressure switch go bad on mine; that's all in

5 years. My transmission has developed an intermittent harsh shift so I'll be looking at a tranny repair at some point. But big deal, this happens occasionally - to every manufacturer.

I've read all the stuff on that site and a few other sites too. While everything there is probably true, keep in mind (which we don't do when we're reading this stuff) that much of this stuff is fairly isolated. It's bad stuff for sure. But the hype on these sites would have you believe that every car that rolls off the line is going to have these problems. It isn't true. There's over 1.5 million 2.7L engines out there. So far only 700 or 800 complaints have been lodged with Chrysler over sludge failures. For every formal complaint lodged, maybe there's one or two more where the owner's said nothing. So maybe there's a couple of thousand failures. I wish it were zero complaints. But it's not like there's 10,000 or 50,000 or 100,000 cases.

You mention Chrysler but you fail to mention VW, Toyota, Saab and Lexus

- all of which have had severe problems with sludge prone engines that die prematurely. I have 2 sister in-laws that both had VWs with the

1.8L engine. Both had their engines seize due to sludge. Ands they both paid out of their pockets to have the engines replaced. Compare that to the Chrysler experience in my immediate family.

What about GM and their famous intake gasket leak that has sludged tens of thousands of engines. They're being sued for it at present. I spoke to a customer this past Thursday who had his brand new $40K loaded up Toyota ForeRunner, develop an electronic steering control glitch that took him right off the highway, total the vehicle and put him in the hospital for 4 days. What about those bastards at Ford who knew about the unsafe gas tank design, but callously calculated that they would be further ahead to settle a few law suits when a few people died, rather than spend the money to fix the problem.

Sure Chrysler has had engineering and safety problems. But they ALL do. Every car company has pissed-off, dissatisfied customers because of mistakes they've made with design and quality control. Every car company has lemons. If you look hard enough, you'll find web sites devoted to many of the auto manufacturers regarding problems, not just Chrysler.

Don't be a sheep and follow the crowd at one website. Several hundred sludged up, seized 2.7L engines is not a good thing. But it isn't a crisis either when there's 1.5 million of them in service. GM - now they have a crisis with their sludged engines.

Phil

that may be true phil no car is perfect but all you need to do i

look at the forums there full of problems not only with chrysle but with gm and ford as well and were not just talking about how to replac a fan belt either im seeing big problems like "trannys ,engines,paint peeling off no starting technitions scratching there head. etc... phill there is a reason why the resale

value is higher on a Honda,toyota,nissan why cause there good and the market

knows that i have owned HONDAS before they ALWAYS fired-up rain or freezing cold never had any major problems with them very dependable if i do say so mysel

theres a reason why the market value is higher on these vehicle

when the time comes to sell them cause there good cant say that for GM , ford or chryseller soory

-- johnin

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40-60.oookms on it not only

unexeptable by any standard i have come to the conclusion that people that buy these vehicles dont only do any research but usually buy them for there exterior looks that chry-seller try"s so hard to attract buyers with. well with chry-seller looks that can kill and breakdown still wanna chryseller anyone? No thanks i will stick with my choice Honda/Toyota/Nissan ;)

Phil I agree with you 100%. A little maintenance goes a long way. Most engine failures I have seen at the dealer have been total neglect. When they first came out with the 2.7 we were told at training that if these engines were not maintained properly severe damage would occur, that was years ago and they were right. Wait until the World Engine 1.8-2.0 and 2.4 have been out for awhile. With the timing chain Phasers and chain adjusters.....if the oil is not changed severe engine damage will occur quick. Also a Non-Free-wheeling engine.

Glenn Beasley Chrysler Tech

What is a switch watch? Is that anything like a Swiss watch? :-)

Maybe climate has an influence. If, as others have postulated, it is heat that is causing the sludge, then being in Ontario might be a great advantage. I always thought that sludge was caused by cold temps and contaminants like lead and water (lead not being a big factor anymore) and varnish and carbon caused by high temps, but I can't say I've read anything definitive on this point.

Matt

I have to wonder how many failures were in engines that the customer was paying for oil and filter changes but that weren't actually being done (I'm speaking of the general population - only you know what the likelihood of that happening at your dealership are).

I've seen plenty of evidence of that as a possibility in my personal life (my mother's Concorde when she took it into the DC dealer for its very first oil/filter change on her nickel - came back with the "Factory Original Filter" and original oil still in it; my daughter's '00 Cherokee that the previous owner had had "both oil and filter" changed "religiously every 3000 miles" at the local Amerilube - except when I went to do the first change after buying it, the filter was a Mopar brand and had heavy surface rust around the entire bottom seam).

The Jiffy Lube TV exposé just reinforced my paranoia about having work done by others, and leads me to believe that at least some percentage of the 2.7L sludge-related failures were due to fraudulent dealers and quick-change places (and maybe some independents?). We would agree that it's not 100% and that it's not 0%. We could argue all day on where in between the actual numbers lie.

At least they are using chains. But I assume the water pump is still integral to the chain drive?

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Concorde.

That's a fact, but I doubt that "johnin" will post back to acknowledge that - doesn't fit his agenda.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Hi...

Wonder how it's possible? Doesn't everyone check their oil level at least once in a while? And if so, can't everyone see the difference between darkish colored oil and almost invisible oil on the dipstick?

Take care.

Ken

You might be surprised. The answer to that question is a resounding "no".

And if so, can't everyone

My mother was 79 at the time. How many 70+ widows do you know that routinely or ever check their oil. Bottom line, I think a large percentage of our population is of the type that don't even know where the dipstick is, much less have the desire or knowledge to crawl underneath and look at the filter. To them, a car's engine compartment is a black box that they have no desire to look into. My guess is that the percentage, in decreasing order, of people who are of the drop-it-off-and-pay-the-bill-and-never-verify-even-if-they-knew-how type are: Elderly widows Females of all ages Elderly couples Young males

We might be surprised how many young males there are these days that are computer literate but that wouldn't know a dip stick from a spark plug, much less how to check behind a shop on any kind of work, starting with an oil/filter change. Shops know this, and many are willing to take the chance of getting caught. The chances of being caught in a state-run or TV station sting are slim, and when caught, as in the case of my mother, they simply offer to change the oil and filter if you will bring it back in - no penalties to them whatsoever.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

On several occassions at my Chrysler dealer, the oil did not look brand new clean after a oil and filter change. I thought maybe they forgot the filter. They swore they changed the filter but did it again and it was clean. Happened again in later oil changes. Just happened at my Honda dealer. I'm not sure if they aren't changing the filter or maybe they don't let it drain long enuf.

I've never seen discolored oil with a filter and oil change for a routine oil change - even if driven 10 or so miles (on a normally maintained, not worn out engine) before the visual check.

If your curious and motivated enough, should be easy enough to prove in the future with a hidden mark on the filter. Besides color of oil, notice the exact level (doesn't prove anything, but, combined with oil color, may add to preponderamce of evidence to your own satisfaction, especially if filter pre-marked). Trouble is, for the trouble it would take to mark the filter, you might as well change it yourself (which they count on for not getting caught too often). HOWEVER - it may be worth it to do it once or twice to see if you can catch them at it. With my mother's car, there was no question: It still had the black filter with a paint stamp saying "ORIGINAL FACTORY FILTER". I had fun with that one. And with my daughter's Cherokee, the fact that it was a MOPAR filter with rust all around the seam was proof enough in my book.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Hi...

94 lhs 3.5. Bought it indistinguishable from brand new late last summer.

Changed oil - Syntec (Castrol synthetic) 5w-30 in early April. Fram synthetic filter (given free with oil purchase).

Since then it's done weekly trips to Dr, bank, grocery - about

5 mile round trips. It's gone to the lake 3 or 4 times, all highway, 180 mile round trip. And grand daughter has acquired her beginners license, so has decided that I need to be taken out for hot chocolate and donuts often - a couple of dozen 5 mile round trips.

Just went out and looked at dipstick. No discoloration at all; have to move the dipstick around to see the wet look. And sniffed it, no sense of any smell other than oil. The wiping cloth (paper towel) has a tiny tinge of beige.

Only thing I can think of that might make a difference is that I left it to drain all afternoon. Might as well, not much else to do :)

Course NOW I do have another small problem developing; I'll post seeking advice in another message...

Take care.

Ken

Here's a couple of questions: (1) Whatever your change interval is (7k, 10k, 15k miles), would the oil be indistinguishabe from new at the end of the interval? (2) If you paid someone to change it, and they didn't, what would it look like by the end of the second change interval (i.e., 14k/20k/30k miles)?

You're going to get some discoloring blow-by no matter what type of oil you're using.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')