Hid conversion 2000 Caravan

HID's, DRL's, and flashing LED high-level rear brake lights bring the worst out in people.. any or all of these on an SUV elevate syou to public enemy #1.. don't go there..

Since when is a Caravan considered a SUV? Although I agree with the rest of your post. :-)

| > Tim | |

I just knew that somebody would pick up on that.. I was making the point that the lighting referred to by the OP when fitted to an SUV is even worse.. DRL's Rule..

Well, its as big, uglier, and as hard to see around, so why do people NOT hate them as much as SUVs? :-)

20 years ago, the 84 Chrysler minvans were MINI. Now they're huge.

As big as the small SUVs, but not even close to the size of an Expedition or Suburban. Ugly is in the mind of the beholder, but I find the minivans, except the new Nissan, to be more pleasing to the eye than most of the SUVs. They aren't nearly as hard to see around as a large SUV. I can see over a minivan in my K1500! :-)

Many folks hate SUVs because they are a symbol of pure excess and waste of fuel for MOST (not all) of the people that own them. I doubt that

10% of the SUVs are ever used for anything that couldn't be done better by a minivan for a lot less cost in natural resources. I don't think people hate them for their size alone, but for many other factors that don't apply to minivans.

Matt

The really gargantuan ones like an H2 or Excursion, maybe. But when an Expedition or Durango gets 19-20 mpg and a Caravan gets 23-35 mpg, is it REALLY a big enough difference to care about? I don't own one, but if I needed a vehicle to haul 6-7 people or tow a trailer, it would be a Durango (rear-drive, v8 power) and not a minivan purely for the difference in drivetrain. Actually it woudl probably be a restored

440-powered Chrysler Town and Country station wagon circa 1971 or Jeep Grand Wagoneer circa 1988

I think some people just have to hate something in order to be happy.

What do you drive, a Miata?

| | 20 years ago, the 84 Chrysler minvans were MINI. Now they're huge. |

I owned a 87 Grand and now a 97 Grand. The 97 isn't any bigger than the 87 was that I can tell. I don't believe your claim is correct. Regardless, they're far from being the size of most SUVs and are over 1000-1500 (or more) pounds lighter as well and get 30%-40% better mileage than a SUV.

If an Expedition or Durango really got 19-20, maybe it wouldn't be much of an issue. I'd be surprised if an Expedition got 15 MPG in average driving that would yield 22-23 in a minivan. That amounts to a 50% advantage to the minivan and, yes, I think 50% is very significant.

Sure, there are some like that, but they are a small minority. As I said, I own a K1500 which isn't an SUV, but it is the same size. However, I haul firewood with it, plow snow with it, etc. I don't drive it to the mall as a status symbol, which is what most folks buy SUVs to do. I also own two minivans, and the difference in fuel mileage is significant. I run 15-16 in the truck vs. 22-25 in the minivans. I still prefer my other Voyager (the Kawasaki one) which gets 48-50 MPG when I'm alone, but if you figure that a minivan can haul 7 people and still get 22 MPG all day long, it is actually much more efficient than my motorcycle, even if I'm riding two-up. 154 seat miles per gallon beats 100 every day. So if you need to carry a bunch of people and their gear very often, a minivan is an extremely economical way to do that. And they are much cheaper to maintain as well. I can buy 4 tires for my minivans for the price of two tires for my Z71 equipped pickup, etc.

However, if you need to tow a heavy trailer, plow snow, etc., then an SUV or pickup truck is the only viable option. But driving the kids to school and the mall in a 6,000 lb. vehicle that gets 14 MPG simply isn't very sensible.

Matt

Actually a '66 Dodge Polara :-)

Depends on the SUV and the minivan. A loaded Town and Country weighs

*more* than my 18-foot-long '66 Polara, and only gets about 3-5 mpg better than a 4.7L powered Durango.

I was as surprised as you since I don't routinely drive an SUV, but the last Expedition I rented (5.4L, 2003 model) did exactly that, and it was just barely broken in with 12k miles on it. And I understand that 4.7L Durangos get over 20 on the highway as well. My folks have a 5.9 Druango that tops out at around 18, but the long-stroke 5.9 has always been a fuel hog.

I know about 2-3 people that own SUVs (mostly Benz M-class and Lexus) because they're "status symbols," but most of the people I know with SUVs picked things like Yukons, Durangos, Expeditions, and Jeeps because they are simpler and cheaper to maintain- rear-drive with inline-6 (Jeep) or v8 engines that just flat hold up better than minivan drivetrains.

How many tanks did you average over? A colleague at work had a Durango with the 5.9 and he couldn't get 16 going downhill. Traded it after just a couple of years. All tests I've seen of the Durange comment on how poor its mileage is compared to other similar vehicles. Even 18 is much less than a minivan will get on the highway. I get 24 easy on a trip and have hit 27 with my 3.3L Grand Voyager. That's 30-50% better than a Durango.

Is that really true? My 96 GV has 146,000 miles and the drive train hasn't been touched. It is thus far the highest mileage vehicle I've owned. My 94 K1500 welded the rocker arm to the pushrod at 5,200 miles. Luckily, it was a warranty repair, but the fact remains that it had a powertrain failure that neither of my minivans have had.

Matt

Of course it isn't true. I know many people that have gotten well into the

100,000 range with their Caravans. My 87 was close in the upper 100,000's before the mitsushitty engine quit (tranny and drive train was original). We sold it to a friend at 90,000 miles. Neighbor across the street has a 95 Grand with 186,000 miles on it. A couple of people at work...one has a 94 with 120,000 (had rebuilt tranny) and one has a 96 with 136,000 (although he has a rear seal leak) and another with a 98 with 160,000 miles on it. My 97 only has 40,000...I only use it as a spare vehicle since my family is grown up now and I don't need such a large vehicle very often these days.

I know a lot of people with Yukons, Expeditions, etc. but you know, non of them have driven them enough to get to that mileage yet. Most tell me that leave them at home...too expensive to drive or won't fit into the parking garages they need to use.

And I forgot that I've also had to replace a u-joint on my truck, and this is still with less than 90K miles. However, not really fair to compare a 4WD drivetrain with a FWD minivan as the front u-joint that failed doesn't even have an equivalent part on a 2WD minivan.

Matt

The lifetime average (60,000 miles) of my folks' Durango is nearly 15, all the city driving included! I got over 18 for 3 tanks out on the highway on a trip a few years ago. The Expedition I rented got almost 20 on two tanks on the highway. Not nearly as good for the one tank I had it on the backroads and even a little bit of offroad. I was very surprised by that truck, I'd always written the new-generation Fords off as overwieght, over-plush, and under-capable. It wasn't

Well, its certainly true that the PERCEPTION is there and motivated these people more than status symbol factor. Is it REALLY true? Statistically, probably so. Especially if you factor out the GM trucks and SUVs, which have had way more trouble than they should have (piston slap, oil consumption, and continuing problems in the son-of-a-700R4 transmission they're still using). Minivans, of all brands, have a lot of transaxle failures- probably even more than GM trucks. nothing wrong with the engines, but the gears that fit in the small space a side-ways installation allows just aren't big enough.

My 96 GV has 146,000 miles and the drive train

And I've got 207k miles on my wife's 93 LH car too and consider it one of the best vehicles I've ever owned. But I still think my 400k mile 73 Plymouth is intrinsically more reliable because most of the drivetrain is so over-built compared to the LH. And its essentially the same drivetrain as a 2000 Durango.

OK, but 15 is a long way from 23 which is what my minivans have averaged over the long haul. I'd be skeptical of looking at only one tank of gas or even two. There is just too much variability in filling the tank, etc. to get an accurate reading on less than about a five tank average.

I hear this a lot, but I've yet to see any data to support it. Even Consumer Reports, which is generally quite anti-American brand, hasn't complained about most minivan transmissions for a long time. I own two minivans with nearly 200,000 combined miles and no transaxle failures yet.

Well, no offense, but thinking it is more reliable and actually being more reliable are two different things! I had a 1970 Plymouth Fury III that went through rear wheel seals and bearings like they were Chiclets. Finally had to replace the entire rear axle. It wasn't nearly as reliable in the power train as my 96 GV. At a little over 100,000 miles on the 383, the oil pressure was so low that the light would flicker on at idle. My 3.3L at 146,000 miles is showing no signs of real internal distress. It uses more oil than I'd like, but then it has always done that. Might be using it a little faster of late, but still getting about 1500 miles a quart as compared to maybe 2500 when I first got it. My 03 GC uses almost no oil at all. I just changed it after the first

3,000 miles I owned it and it was down maybe 1/16" on the dipstick. The old 383 used oil at about the same rate as my oldest van, about 2,000 - 2,500 miles per quart.

Matt

| > Of course it isn't true. I know many people that have gotten well into the | > 100,000 range with their Caravans. My 87 was close in the upper 100,000's | > before the mitsushitty engine quit (tranny and drive train was original). We | > sold it to a friend at 90,000 miles. Neighbor across the street has a 95 Grand | > with 186,000 miles on it. A couple of people at work...one has a 94 with | > 120,000 (had rebuilt tranny) and one has a 96 with 136,000 (although he has a | > rear seal leak) and another with a 98 with 160,000 miles on it. My 97 only has | > 40,000...I only use it as a spare vehicle since my family is grown up now and I | > don't need such a large vehicle very often these days. | >

| > I know a lot of people with Yukons, Expeditions, etc. but you know, non of them | > have driven them enough to get to that mileage yet. Most tell me that leave | > them at home...too expensive to drive or won't fit into the parking garages | > they need to use. | >

| >

| | And I forgot that I've also had to replace a u-joint on my truck, and | this is still with less than 90K miles. However, not really fair to | compare a 4WD drivetrain with a FWD minivan as the front u-joint that | failed doesn't even have an equivalent part on a 2WD minivan. | | Matt |

CV joints may be the closest thing...but if the boots are maintained I don't think they fail very often.

My boots are still sound after 8 years and 146K miles as are the CV joints. I'm pretty impressed. Then again, my minivan doesn't have to push a snow plow all winter like my Chevy truck does! :-)

Matt

Well, I should have said it IS more reliable, and definitely lower cost per mile (maybe even including fuel). Got the receipts and records to prove it. Just a sampling- I had to replace a fuel pump on both vehicles within the last year- $150+ for the LH, $25 for the 73. Alternators? $230 for the LH, $80 for the 73. Rebuilt the front ends a few years ago... don't even get me started on the price difference THERE.

Which is what SHOULD have been done when the bearings failed the second time. Whoever did the repair should have known that solid rear axles don't do that unless something is wrong. The rear axle on my '73 has never had the cover removed in 430,000 miles. When the differential gearset in my '69 got noisy due to a previous owner's "high performance" modifications, I had no qualms at all about pulling one out of a junkyard car, because they just DO NOT fail under normal conditions. Would you pull a transaxle out of a FWD vehicle in a junkyard? I wouldn't because a dead transaxle is probably the very thing that put it in the junkyard in the first place.