Re: In-the-tank fuel pumps cause death and destruction

Maybe I'm dense or something, but how can the in-tank fuel pump be blamed for these two incidents?

News Story One:

Thursday, October 28, 2004 · Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT

Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic fumes, investigators said.

David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical examiner's office said.

Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push the truck out of a detached garage.

All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.

News Story Two:

Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire By Virgil Cochran Lamar Daily News

Thursday, October 28, 2004 -

Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business will be up and running again in just a few days.

Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an electrical short, which triggered the blaze.

It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to get out safely, Travis said.

Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.

Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions of the business are up and running.

Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water damage.

Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and Holly Fire Departments.

As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.

Reply to
Silver Surfer
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News Story One:

Thursday, October 28, 2004 · Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT

Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic fumes, investigators said.

David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical examiner's office said.

Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push the truck out of a detached garage.

All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.

News Story Two:

Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire By Virgil Cochran Lamar Daily News

Thursday, October 28, 2004 -

Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business will be up and running again in just a few days.

Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an electrical short, which triggered the blaze.

It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to get out safely, Travis said.

Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.

Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions of the business are up and running.

Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water damage.

Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and Holly Fire Departments.

As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.

Reply to
Thomas Moats

Might be.

Story 1

First the disclaimer. I could be wrong, but . . .

Every in-tank fuel pump I know of requires that the tank be removed from the vehicle. Perhaps they tried to sleaze-repair by not draining the tank. Or maybe they substantially drained the tank, but not completely. If the pump were external as has been conventional for decades, the tank wouldn't have to be drained and removed to safely remove the fuel pump.

Story 2

"Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an electrical short, which triggered the blaze."

Kind of self-explanatory, isn't it?

By the way, little-old me - a mechanical engineer - really doesn't understand why the pumps were stuck in the tank. I believe "Click and Clack" aka Tom and Ray Maliozzi MIT graduates and hosts of Car Talk once, as I recall, said they were not sure why the pumps were stuck in the tank.

Possible reason - Increases cost of repair?

Reply to
Al Smith

Its a Nomen thread, anything can and will be written, someday I wish him and Mic Canic would get a clue

Reply to
SRG

Simple: To increase integration and reduce costs. The auto mfgrs. prefer to buy fewer total assemblies from suppliers to cut down on costs such as separate handling, installation, shipping, purchase contracts, parallel paper trails, tracking systems, project managers, installation effort, etc. By putting the fuel pump with the "sending" unit, the fuel pump and gage sender (and, in the case of the LH cars, the fuel filter) get incorporated into one purchased "part".

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

No shiite.

Lessee...if we all gave up cars we could save 45,000 lives a year, no wait, we'd also have to give up transportation of medicines too...so maybe we'd have a net savings of 22,000 lives a year...ooops, death by horse accidents...ok, we save 11,000 lives a year...but those 11,000 starve because there's no way to transport the food from farm to market.

Ok, let's all just commit suicide now and save everyone the bother of living.

You play the game you take your chances...

The world was made with corners and no amount of doo-doo-gooder wishful thinking is going to change this from a zero sum game. Carpe diem...or get out of the way and stop trying to save me from myself.

Cripes.

Richard

Reply to
Richard Smith

And thus I present to him the Darwin Award.

Reply to
Scott Ehardt

Now if he was going back in "to save a dog" he'd be a typical Darwin winner.

Just a shame that no one has invented a "fire extinguisher" yet to deal with such a circumstance. Though I suppose working with Gasoline, a fire is the last thing you'd suspect. :-)

Reply to
Full_Name

Yup, you are wrong.

Rob

Reply to
trainfan1

Yup... it had little to nothing to do with the actual fuel pump - it was faulty tools and/or techniques.

Rob

Reply to
trainfan1

You obviously aren't too familiar with the blathering drivel that this jerk posts in here too often, are you?

Reply to
RPhillips47

You can't legislate against stupidity. If you follow some basic safey precautions there is very little danger. I'm not a professional mechanic and I have changed out 3 in tank fuel pumps with no problems. This is as stupid as the folks trying to blame Honda for fires caused by mechanics who didn't check for the old filters gasket when doing an oil change.

---------------- Alex

Reply to
Alex Rodriguez

Definitely wrong. I changed the in tank fuel pump on my 86 Dodge GLH-T three times. All I had to do was wait for the fuel level to drop low enough before I pulled it. I jakced up the right rear of the car and then pulled off the wheel. Then the fuel pump/sender assembly could be easily pulled out. Smart design.

--------------- Alex

Reply to
Alex Rodriguez

An educated guess - adding to your clearly educated response - no sarcasm, so don't get pissed...

Also, this type of integration is used secondarily, but not insignificantly, to increase book-billed labor charges and replacement costs on all related parts and diagnostic procedures. Under warranty, this isn't usually a big deal, because the factory-trained techs are specifically trained in the "is/is not" questions that arise, and how to test for them. Off warranty, or at the local shop, properly trained techs use this to their advantage like many other things, simply billing "book time" that doesn't reflect reality, relying on the customer's ignorance.

While replacing a heater core, and heater hoses while they were at it, which I completely agreed with, a shop tried to bill me $120 in labor to change the thermostat. I told them to put it back together, fill it, and then expect legal trouble, or to do it as part of the job, and just bill me for the part. Knowing I'd caught them in a lie in January, while I was at work downtown when it was zero degrees outside, they shut up and acquiesced, albeit begrudingly. I laughed, and asked repeatedly why I could do something in 10 min., by itself, that would take them 1.5 hours with everything already aparts. They had no answer. I had the facts, prices and diagrams right in front of me as well. It wasn't worth it to them. I'm not a lawyer, I'm a businessman. It was all about cost / benefit in this case. I never have gone back to them (a major repair franchise, I might add).

In their defense, shops use book time out of necessity sometimes, because of a lack of local knowledge. In their attack, shops and techs use book time to make money on flat-rate labor. Techs and shops alike continually look for common, high-book-time gems with which to bilk their customers and reap profits.

Sadly, few people have time to, care to, or can, feasibly, dig into these problems themselves, which is why this system has proven so successful.

The saddest and most uncertain factor in these equations is the newbie tech who just invested $50,000 in his or her education and tools to work on new cars. Too many fail or quit, and most are underpaid for their valuable work. Others succeed, and either become vampires themselves, or are good enough (morally and skill-wise) to turn an honest, good profit and NOT screw consumers with (on average) 100% markups on parts and book-billed labor.

Ok, so many of you know all of this, and are saying "so what". I'm just throwing this out there on my own time, having seen both sides, and I'm just trying to share experience...

FWIW... a little homework goes a l> Al Smith wrote:

Reply to
Wound Up

Fuel pump the cause is bullshit. More like human stupidity i would say.

Reply to
And Here I Die

Reply to
Rick Slater

You don't think there were fuel fires when people replaced external fuel pumps, or tank, or lines, or filters?

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

POPPY COCK!!!!! what a crock,,,ok lets put the fuel pumps outside the tank, Where should we put the fuel Sending unit???? Ever thought maybe the person working on the car didnt know what they were doing???? I wonder if maybe they were using a drop lite next to the tank to see what they were doing and maybe the pressurized fuel hit the bulb and ignited the fuel? Mcdonalds got sued for having coffee scold someone, coffee has been hot for how many yrs??? should me make coffee cold now

News Story One:

Thursday, October 28, 2004 · Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT

Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic fumes, investigators said.

David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical examiner's office said.

Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push the truck out of a detached garage.

All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.

News Story Two:

Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire By Virgil Cochran Lamar Daily News

Thursday, October 28, 2004 -

Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business will be up and running again in just a few days.

Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an electrical short, which triggered the blaze.

It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to get out safely, Travis said.

Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.

Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions of the business are up and running.

Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water damage.

Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and Holly Fire Departments.

As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.

Reply to
maxpower

News Story One:

Thursday, October 28, 2004 · Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT

Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic fumes, investigators said.

David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical examiner's office said.

Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push the truck out of a detached garage.

All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.

News Story Two:

Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire By Virgil Cochran Lamar Daily News

Thursday, October 28, 2004 -

Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business will be up and running again in just a few days.

Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an electrical short, which triggered the blaze.

It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to get out safely, Travis said.

Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.

Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions of the business are up and running.

Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water damage.

Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and Holly Fire Departments.

As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.

Reply to
maxpower

I have found that one cannot be too careful when working with gasoline.

Last winter, a person in my neighborhood was working on his motorcycle in his carport. He setup an electric heater to keep warm. He disconnected the fuel line, and some gasoline spilled out on the floor. As soon as the fumes came in contact with the heater, well you can imagine what happened. The cold dry air didn't help either.

Because the fire dept. was able to respond quickly, most of the damage was confined to the carport. The bike was a total loss.

-Kirk Matheson

Reply to
Kirk Matheson

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