Towing Query

Can anybody give a definite answer to a question that so called "experts" cant agree, I'm told "well it all depends etc"
My simple question is this.
Can I tow a trailer which weighs one and half tons that will have a TWO ton vehicle on the bed of the trailer, The trailer is fully enclosed and tri axle. Do I legally have to have a TACHOGRAPH fitted.
This will Hire/Reward, (New Business)
I will be towing with a Mitsubishi Pajero 2.8 Exceed I know the petrol will be heavy !
If ANYONE can give a answer please contact me ASAP. I will be extremely grateful
Here's hoping someone out there can give a straightforward answer
Regards
Paul
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Your car plus the trailer without its load is 2.8 + 1.5 = 4.3 tons which is more than the 3.5 ton all-up weight limit. Add 2 tons of car and it gets very interesting doesn't it!
Suggest you visit the DVLA web site and get facts instead of opinions.

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Check the Mitsubishi handbook for its maximum permissible train weight, which may also be on its VIN plate. This is the maker's statement of the maximum weight of vehicle + its load + trailer + its load. Although it is not an offence in itself to exceed this with something like a car, it would be difficult to defend charges of "unsafe load" or whatever it's called.
As to tachographs, yes, in theory you need one.
<http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_freight/documents/page/dft_freight_504543-02.hcsp#P184_12704
It's a widely held misconception that tachographs (and, of course, drivers' hours rules) only apply to lorries. The wording is that exemption from EC rules applies to: "Vehicles used for the carriage of goods where the maximum permissible weight of the vehicle, including any trailer or semi-trailer, does not exceed 3.5 tonnes" together with various odd exemptions irrelevant here.
Of course, you won't be stopped very often, though you're much more likely to be if your trailer is sign-written to show it's a business, not helping out your mate.
Have you managed to find anyone prepared to insure you, including goods in transit, for anything like a sensible price? Who?
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Kevin Poole
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wrote:

Provided you keep the entire trailer+load weight under the 3.5ton limit, you can do this with an over-run braked trailer. Any more weight and you need power brakes, which will require a commercial towing vehicle with trailer brake capability.

I doubt wether the towing capabilities of the Pajero will allow a 3.5ton trailer, you will have to look up the manufacturers official figures. Pratically speaking there are very few vehicles of this class which have the capability (from the manufacturers figures) to tow the full 3.5tons. You are likely to be needing a bigger vehicle.
Unfortunatly to get this kind of towing load, the towing vehicle is probably going to exceed 3.5tons MGW anyway, which puts you into the 7.5ton category. Now not only do you need category C1 on your licence, but you are going to require a tacho to do it commercially.
If you're thinking of doing this commercially as a business you'd be far better off getting a flatbed/beavertail recovery vehicle rather than going for car+trailer
Alex
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In addition I would add that a 7.5 tonne vehicle that is taxed as a recovery vehicle can be tachograph exempt.
Dixie
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dixie wrote:

Dixie's comments are correct but we were told by the Metropolitan Police that a recovery vehicle that is tachograph exempt can not carry serviceable vehicles, only ones that are defective or damaged in some way. We did not take any notice but that is the individual's own responsibility. Robert
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serviceable
A serviceable vehicle can become a defective vehicle by disconnecting the LT connection from the distributor :-)
Jim
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On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:12:46 +0100, "Roberts"

Vehicles taxed as recovery vehicles can only be used for the purpose of recovering vehicles, thus you must either be on your way to pick up a vehicle, or actually transporting it. So no popping down the shops in it......
Alex
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Probably then getting into the realms of needing an Operators Licence which needs a CPC in Road Transport.
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Further to my earlier reply to this question:
Google Pajero maximum towing, and it looks like it's only 2500kg
Don't forget there is a maximum width for trailers towed by tonka toys, even proper ones, of 2300mm. There have been some well-reported cases of systematic trailer checks at motorway services where owners of wide trailers have had to get their yankavans taken home by HGVs because they exceeded this width.

No, sorry, that's not how newsgroups work. Ask on the group, read the answers on the group; and ideally share a bit of _your_ knowledge, too. Like answering my previous question about where you've found that will cover goods in transit on a trailer for a sensible price.
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: My simple question is this. : : Can I tow a trailer which weighs one and half tons that will have a TWO ton : vehicle on the bed of the trailer, The trailer is fully enclosed and tri : axle.
There are at least two questions here.
1) Will your license let you do it?
A quick look at http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/dl_towing_trailers.htm suggests that the answer is a) yes, if you got your car license before 1997 and b) yes if you got your car license since, provided you upgrade to B+E entitlement
2) Will the contruction and use regulations let you do it?
Dunno. I suspect that will depend on what the Mitsubishi manual says
There is also
3) Will your insurers let you do it?
And there is only one way to answer that.
Ian
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Whatever the legalities, you would be sailing close to the wind and attract the attention of new VOSA cars which are becoming more and more common. But as no expert, just my own experiences with cars on trailers and articulated lorries, I can think of a few good reasons for not doing it. For a start, a general rule is that total weight of the trailer and load should not exceed 85 % of the weight of the towing vehicle. A bit higher for 4x4's but even so, you are pushing it (ouch!). If your trailer wheel hits a bump, it causes the tow hitch to be pitched to one side with a certain amount of force. If the towing vehicle doesn't have the bulk to soak up the jolt, the trailer then dictates which way you are going. You start by snaking and if you stand on the ankers the trailer would just push you round. Faster speed makes it worse as the bump give more energy to the trailer.
Try manoeuvring a single axle trailer by hand - easy. Try a twin axle and you have to push down on the tow hitch to get two wheels off the ground to get it to turn. Imagine the work your Mitsy is trying to do to dominate 3.5 tonnes on 3 axles! It will always want to go it's own way and I wouldn't risk it over any distance or at any speed. Your vehicle would get a better ride on a 7.5 tonner anyway.
I have just found this site but I haven't read it: http://www.ntta.co.uk /
Hope this helps
Pete W
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Gentlemen,
I have experienced three lanes and the hard shoulder trying to bring an empty car trailer and car to a halt, fortunately for me I hit nothing and managed to stop it. Tow the trailer with a truck or hire a truck its safer.
Martin P
Pete W wrote:

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safer.
One of the finest bits of driving I ever saw was a few years ago on a freeway somewhere south of New York. I was a passenger in a 4x4 of some sort with a trailer carrying a Formula Atlantic. It started to snake, then fishtail, and things got a bit fraught. A couple of those huge trucks - Peterbilt or similar - spotted what was going on, and one came alongside on the left with the other on the right. They then moved gently together with us in between and squeezed until we were all straightened up. No CB, no mobile phones, just excellent observation and brilliant execution.
Don't suppose the drivers read this NG but if you do, thanks, guys. Nobody stopped so we didn't have the chance to thank you in person.
Geoff MacK
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Pete W wrote:

Not sure where the law stands now, but up until 7 or 8 years ago my old man was working as delivery driver for a local BMW dealership (King's Lynn area). They used to run as their national delivery / transfer / recovery setup a short wheelbase Mitsubushi Shogun and four wheel trailer. I assume that the setup was legal then, at least, even with a 7 series on the back. They certainly didn't hide its identity under a bushel - with the dealership name and contact details in big letters and BMW 535 on the numberplate :o)
The whole point then was to (as the original poster appears to want to do) avoid the whole issue of tachos, extra licensing etc)
As an aside that old Shogun went though a LOT of clutches and 4 gearboxes, but only broke down and stranded him at the roadside once in over 250,000 miles
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