On 11/23/09 6:09 PM, in article email@example.com, "Nate Nagel"
"...15 years ago" - that's the problem with this whole thread. Everybody is
arguing antique anecdotal evidence and apparently no one has any actual
facts to contribute. For all we know from this discussion, they had one bad
production run in 1994 and everybody is still talking about it.
Try this experiment - the next time you change the oil filter, up end the
old one and see how long it take to drain out. I'll bet you find no
difference from one brand to another, I know I haven't. Nobody's ADBVs work
worth a damn.
The real issue is whether the filter media meets mfr's specs & that element
seems to never enter into the discussion.
Just for kicks, here's a look at filters one guy did.
10 years old.
But you could study a filter today, and tomorrow they change it at the
I've used all kinds of filters, and my practice is to dump their
contents into the drain pan. They all dump their contents just fine.
Some might glug a bit more than others. BFG.
Never had a base down oil filter configuration. Most seem to have
been base-up at about 45 degrees. My Ford 352 was the only one
I can recall that was close to vertical - base up. Most of my cars
have been GM.
They'll dump some oil when removed. A rag is your friend. No big
How many here fill their new filter with oil? I never did.
Never noticed any undue lack of pressure when starting up with a dry
new filter either.
I think most lifter noise at startup is because they are cold, not
because they don't almost immediately pump up.
Anyway I don't pay much attention to filters, except I don't buy Fram.
Usually just go with AC.
Not because I know anything about them, but because the raps against
Fram filtered in long ago. Funny how a rep can stick, whether still
deserved or not.
Anyway, filter selection is mostly voodoo.
Never liked the idea of toilet paper oil filters, will say that.
About 4 years ago, just before I got rid of our 1988 3.0 liter New
Yorker it got a Fram filter installed - and the lifters clattered on
startup - about 30 seconds on a warm day, up to 90 seconds on a cooler
day. oil pressure took longer to come up. I didn't leave it on for the
full 5000Km - changed it to a Wix manufactured Napa filter and the
clatter went away - immediately.
On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:02:12 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
We're going to try to get the Caravan into our guitar player's shop to do
the brakes, and at the same time I'm going to have him get me a Wix filter
for the Soob. It's 800 miles early, but the oil p dropped and started that
horrible clacking noise again. It's supposed to be nice Sat and Sun, so
I'll do an early oil change.
Results posted when I do.
Note: changing the oil does not always result in stopping the clacking...
*chuckle* no it does not...
once upon a time I bought a BMW 535i with high miles and an exhaust leak
(but near pristine body and interior)
had the exhaust leak fixed and adjusted the valves (solid lifter cam)
noise did not go away...
spun a rod bearing a couple kilomiles later :(
Actually had the engine replaced with a junkyard motor but sold the car
when I moved to VA. Was a great car but the cost of rebuilding the
suspension (would have needed it soon enough) and buying new wheels to
replace the original metric TRX wheels was more than the car was worth
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
The important point, for me, was that so many people jump on this bandwagon
and there is very little or no objective data on the subject. This business
open filters and declaring them good or no good got a lot of this started,
had no relevance at all.
I disagree. Examining the components that make up a filter is a first
step. You might not be able to determine the actual quality of the
filter material, but you certianly can see a major difference in
quality between a regular grade FRAM filter and a WIX or Motorcraft
filter. I've cut open numerous used filter and more than once I've
seen FRAMs with detached end caps. The regular grade FRAM filter may
be adequate for the job, but a look at the insides of regular grade
FROM filters convined me that they are not as good as filters from
Motorcraft or Wix that have comparable (or even lower) prices.
FRAM does not claim to have particuarly good filtering efficiency, and
they do appear to have cut corners on the interior construction. So in
my mind the question is not if FRAM filters are OK, the question is,
Given that FRAM filters are not particualrly cheap, why would I buy
The fact is it has been scientifically proven that Fram filters do a
better job than Wix for removing the smallest particles from the oil.
That was not determined by cutting filters open but by doing tests on
the oil after many miles of service. And the effects of not filtering
the finest particles takes many years and many miles to show up. The
look of the filter may be important to you, but many taxi and delivery
services use fram filters because they are more interested in the
results than what the filter looks like on the inside.
Because tests have shown they do remove smaller particles than wix or
purolator. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. If you have an old
beater that is loaded up with an accumulation of those fines plus a worn
out oil pump from many years of pumping those small particles putting a
Fram filter on the engine can lead to trouble.
So? Running with no oil pressure for >10 sec at a time is way more
detrimental to the life of an engine than <10 micron particles.
Taxi service may actually be a good application for Fram filters as they
don't do many cold starts per mile compared to regular private use vehicles.
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
Maybe yes if in fact that was the valid choice one faced. But unless
you are one of those guys on the internet with beater who swears he
would never use a Fram that isn't going to be the choice you're faced
with. That business of running with no oil pressure doesn't happen to
cars in good condition. If it did you can bet the dealerships would be
deluged with complaints because lots late model cars have Fram filters
on them and you can bet customers would be complaining.
I've never seen any evidence that cold starts are a problem. I have
seen plenty of slant sixes with Fram filters and not a single one had
that problem. If there was a problem I would think the auto makers
would be concerned about engine damage from using Fram filters. But the
automakers aren't complaining about harm to new engines. The complaints
are all coming from guys on the internet with old worn out engines.
And what's with this cutting filters open and getting all panicked when
you see cardboard on the end of the filters? I used to have a chevy 283
with a canister filter. Every filter I put on that engine had cardboard
on both ends of the filter. For 30 years I saw that cardboard on every
filter I put on and every one I took off and not once did it look like
that was something I should be concerned about. Seemed like pretty
sturdy design to me.
Which also gets me. Soobs have horizontally opposed engines, with the
cylinders lying flat just above the oil line. So, not all of the oil
drains out of the cylinders, so when you start, they aren't totally 'dry'
like an upright engine is.
Hmmm...change the filter, the oil pressure drops. On one car...ok..old
worn out engine.
Two cars? Well, maybe old worn out engines.
Three cars? I'm beginning to see a trend here.
And one of the old, worn out engines only has 139,000 miles on it, not
much for a Japanese car. And records I do have show oil changes every
You haven't seen it so it isn't a problem. So why did I see it on two
different cars? Which is the sum total of my experience with slant
sixes? Meaning that Frams had a 100% failure rate for me on that engine?
No, they weren't "worn out beaters" (well, one *was* a beater but it had
a "fresh reman" engine in it - the other was all original with 80K
miles.) And what difference does it make anyway? You really mean to
say that a Wix filter can heal a worn out engine to the point that it
makes the oil pressure come up faster? Sounds kinda magical, but if so,
I'm gonna keep using Wix for sure!
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
Mine wasn't a beater either. Kinda funny that it broke in and ran
perfect with no oil pressure issues at all until I tried a Fram
I suspect some might find it hilarious that the problem vanished
once I took the Fram filter off and never returned.
Dunno about you Nate, but I was born yesterday, but not last
Whether this has anything to do with the OP's problem I don't
know. I'd never heard of a Fram filter causing lower run pressures.
That's a new one on me, but there is no doubt at all that the
anti drain valves are fairly useless.
Normally, if one noticed a lower pressure by using a certain filter,
I would suspect it is restrictive, usually due to being a "super"
filtering model. But the orange Fram filter is not one of those.
It's a stock plain jane filter.
I'll be interested to hear what the pressures are when he changes
to another brand filter. I forgot what he said they are running as
far as pressure. In general, you usually want to see about 10
pounds of pressure for each 1000 rpm. IE: 3000 rpm, you should
see at least 30 lb's oil pressure.
Well if it was rebuilt it wasn't new and likely wasn't anywhere close to
being like original. Are you talking about a slant six engine?
It's kinda suspicious that you can't keep your story straight.
Previously you said Fram was used right after the rebuild. Now you make
it sound like you used other filters and used the Fram much later. You
know anyone can make up a story and tell it on usenet.
How do you know what it was like? And what would rebuild tolerances
have to do with an anti drainback valve working or not?
The engine was close enough to original to run like a new
original engine. It still runs like a new engine.
I don't know what else you want to hear. And actually I don't care.
And no it was not a slant six. It is a Ford 300 six with the filter
mounted horizontal to the side of the engine.
Yea, and anyone can be a horses ass on the internet too..
I used the fram filter about 5000 miles or so after the rebuild.
I consider that right after the rebuild, and the reason I said
that was you were implying that my engine was a beater and
all crudded out. It was not. It was a very clean engine.
I used only motorcraft FL1A's except for that one time when I
used the Fram which I got free, was laying around, and I decided
to try it even knowing about the anti drain valve problem.
The damn thing flaked out on me that very night and I had
trouble building oil pressure after cold starting. Which it had
never done using the FL1A. Ever!
I took the damn thing off that night and replaced it with a FL1A
and never saw the problem again. PERIOD!
If you like Fram filters, use the sorry things. I won't, and I don't
care if it chaps every whiny asshole named Jim from here to
New York City.
Anyone that actually has a clue is familiar with the problem.
I knew about it before I tried it, but curiosity got the better of
me and I wanted to see it for myself. I did see it, and I won't
ever use one again.
Like I said, it's not something I just made up. Like one said,
you've never seen the problem, so according to you it can't
exist.. What an asshole... :/
I'm through with this thread. I've covered everything I need
to talk about concerning sorry Fram oil filters.
And I'm sure had my fill of talking to a horses ass.
You tell me that. Your the one claiming there is some sort of oil
pressure problem but you haven't explained the circumstances with enough
clarity for any one reading it to determine anything. The only thing you
have said that sounded clear and reliable is that that you hated Fram
filters before you even tried the first one, and that you tried that one
filter on a fairly old engine which you rebuilt. That is hardly the
mountain of evidence you seem to think it is.
Yes it is something you just made up. You do not have much evidence.
Your tale is one rather poorly remembered single incident. I have seen
engines with various types of oil pressure problems and most of them
were not using Fram filters.
Nobody denies there is a lot of Fram detractors on Usenet. That is a
fact - no one doubts you can find people who agree with you. But if the
only evidence you can muster is everybody else says the Fram filter is
bad - that is no evidence at all.
I don't claim Fram filters never fail, but I know that anyone who
claims they always fail is simply lying. Studies have shown that the
failure rate for the drain back valve on Fram's is no different than
many other brands.
It may come as a surprise to you but brand new engines sometimes fail.
Read the following from a service technician that spent 35 years looking
at the problems that can occur with Ford engines under warranty"
***** START QUOTE******
For many years I worked in Ford Quality Services Dyno. Part of our
responsibility was to disassemble dealer return 4.6 and early 5.4
engines from across North America. These were noise concerns,
catastrophic failures, you name it. Engines that were pulled from
customers vehicles under warranty. We had engines from everyday drivers,
taxi, limo, police, raceing, delivery service, etc. I think I can safely
say I have seen it all when it comes to engine failures be it abuse or
other wise. We dissasembled, analized, and wrote reports on our findings
and determination on root cause of failure.
All filters be it air, fuel, oil have the potential to induce
contamination from the very material it is constructed of. The very
filter material that is designed to remove contaminates can breakdown
and migrate into down stream engine components. Any filter regardless of
manufacture has this potential. We have seen this with Mass air, fuel
injectors, oil passages ( restrictors). it happens because anything
mechanical has the potential to fail.
We would write reports based on our teardown analysis of the failed
engine. This report would be used for determination of warranty approval
or denial. I cannot remember when a warranty was denied because a
specific brand of oil filter was used. Now I've seen failures where we
found the original factory oil filter still on the engine after twenty
to sixty or seventy thousand miles and this was noted in the report. A
much bigger factor for warranty claim is regular maintainance with
receipts/records intact. I simply do not believe a dealer has the legal
right to deny a claim based on what brand of oil or filter the customer
used. I personally have never seen this happen. We would get police
vehicles with blown engines from high speed chases. The records would
show they used some off brand filter with bulk oil but had regular oil
changes at recommended intervals. They still were covered under
warranty. I have recieved failed engines with every brand or off brand
oil filter you can imagine and it was not a determining factor of
warranty denial or acceptance. Keeping receipts and maintainance records
for each vehicle is paramount.
Therefore the Fram versus Motorcraft debate in my opinion is mute. I
have used Fram as well as motorcraft and others. If I have a particular
concern ( start up knock for example) with one over the other then I
stick with the one I have confidence in. I have never seen a warranty
denial because a Fram filter was on the engine or as I stated any brand
filter for that matter.
This is just based on my experience. I don't claim to know everything
about this topic. But I know that Ford does value a customer and tries
to satisfy them. After spending much time also as a dealer panel rep I
can tell you there is always two sides of the story to every warranty
claim. The dealers and the customers. I learned not to make any
judgement until I heard both sides. You would be surprised how the story
can change once you get everyone in room together....
If you are abusing your vehicle or neglecting regular maintainance they
can and will decipher it and you very well may foot the bill on a
failure replacement or repair. If not then the dealer should take care
of you regardless of the oil filter brand.
***** END QUOTE******
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