Once again you prove yourself full of shit. The current A500/518/618/42/44/46/47/48R(H/E) are ALL the same design as the A727 and A904 transmissions. Pull apart a 727, and the guts from it will interchange with the guts from the three speed section of a 46 with no differences except the tailshaft. The only other differences in going to the 47/48 are numbers of clutch plates, so the drums have the snap ring groove cut in a different location.
The real difference, which you have claimed to be smart enough to know, is the heat generated by the OD unit. This breaks down the ATF, which is what causes most of the failures associated with the OD transmissions.
You've read that here many times, and its the only point on which you agree with TransSurgeon, yet you couldn't dig it up from your morass of knowledge.
Yep, instead of redesigning the unit to handle the new requirements they instead just stuff more shit into the same bag, IOW, turn a solid long life transmission into a high maintenance POS.
LOL, you just made my point again Maxi. Instead of redesigning the transmission to either better deal with the heat generated or make servicing it about as easy as an oil change, they just stuffed more parts into a difficult to service unit requiring the owner to go to the aftermarket to get parts that are basically a requirement for reliable, long term operation.
Wrong again. 1975 Dodge FSM claims trans fluid and filter should be changed at 30k normallly, 20k for severe service. 2000 Dodge FSM calls for medium duty (schedule A) ATF change at 24k, heavy duty (schedule B) at 12k. Given the higher heat and loading of OD, the maintenance is not "high". Secondly, since the new transmissions are virtually the same, but with an OD ratio literally bolted on, it hardly diminishes the quality of engineering or the track record of the trans as a whole.
Wrong again. The trans now comes with a cooler for towing. Second, there are no more parts in the front section than there used to be. Third, its not difficult to service, certainly no more so than its predecessor, which wasn't difficult either. Parts from the aftermarket aren't required for long term operation. I have 62,000 on mine, and have changed the fluid twice. Its about due for another change.
I'm not sure where you get your information, but you certainly don't have any real facts.
Really? for what type of vehicle? Either way, that is once every 2 to 3 years.
That is just about twice as often.
With the advances in materials and lubrication, it most certianly is, especially when you pretty much have to take the trans apart (remove the pan) to do it.
The trans is only as good as it's weakest point. We had this discussion with the DC 9 1/4 rears and you were wrong there too. While the design of the rear was unchanged, they decided to save a little money by using second rate bearings and that turned the rear into a POS as well, especially for those who had to cough up the big bucks to repair it.
Then why are so many people installing aftermarket coolers?
Is that the same as no more parts inside of the case at all and if not, WTF is your point? The point is that NOTHING is different even though the internal parts run MUCH hotter than the non-OD units of the past. How about a deeper pan and a drain plug?
Sure it is. Much harder than changing the oil and the frequency is damn near the same amount anymore, especially with the new oils comming out.
And for each change, you have to remove 4000 bolts to drop the pan (and it doesn't have a drain), remove and replace the filter while it continues to drip fluid on you, hope that the new gasket that comes with the kit is not damaged or folded so that it will leak for sure, reinstall the 4000 bolts that hold the pan on making sure not to overtighten any of them or strip any of them, and then pour the new fluid through the dipstick tube while praying that it doesn't piss half of it onto the ground. Now while this was acceptable when the change frequency was never or once in the life time of the vehicle, 1 or more times a year is unacceptable. A simple redesign would use a deep sump finned pan with a drain plug and converting the filter to an external spin on type but that would cost a few $$ per vehicle and we just can't have that now, can we.
Neither do you although your half-truths are interesting.
Let's deal with current applications. For the 48RE, DC calls for fluid/filter changes every 30,000 miles for severe service (from my '03 FSM). Ford calls for the same (from Ford's online publications). GM (actually Allison) wants fluid/filter changes every 12,000 miles (from Allison's online publications).
Now - who's excessive here?
Better tell that to the supposedly-highest-technology transmission out there... both Dodge and Ford trannies can go over twice as long on fluid/filter changes.
Right.... because removing twelve bolts is JUST like disassembling the entire transmission. It's no different than a differential, Tom... are you going to piss and moan about Dana or AAM axles, as well?
Only off by 3,988. Hey, for you, that's pretty damn good...
Only if you're stupid enough to put you head in the way.
Funny... I could have sworn my gasket was re-useable. Oh yeah - that's because it is.
Yep - just like the 4,000 bolts that hold a differential cover on...
Correct. Basic mechanical knowledge and practices are required. If you can't handle that, you're better off paying someone who knows what they're doing... just like anything else on the truck.
Pardon me while I completely side step this pissing contest and ask a question ...
On the fluid/filter change called for by DC, are they recommending a complete fluid change or just the nasty crap that falls when the pan comes off? I have read that a complete change is preferable. However, if I requested that of my "5 star" service department, they would look at me like I had 4 heads.
I took my truck a "free detail" after I purchased it. When I drove into the service department, the service guy came over and took my information ... meanwhile my truck is still idling, while we're standing less than 6 inches from the driver side front tire ... the next question floored me ... "Hey, is this thang a diesel?"
In my "opinion" by having 26 years in the trade and by what I do on my own truck that is used fairly hard, every other time the pan is pulled and filter changed. This gives me a chance to see if there are any sparklies or chunks laying in the pan. The in-between times I put the flush machine on it and just exchange the fluid.
I didn't know ole tbone worked in a service dept.....
If regular fluid/filter changes are performed, and the transmission isn't abused (ie. fluid burnt up), there's no need to do anything other than drop the pan (yep, all 4,000 bolts), change the filter, and re-fill.
Everything from a D100 to a D600, according to the FSM.
LOL, you CLEARLY have never had a trans apart. Pan bolts and three screws, and you call it "pretty much apart." Is your head up your ass?
Unfortunately, the weakest point on these transmissions is the idiot behind the wheel, 90% of the time.
Because they aren't smart enough to buy the towing package OR, they buy a used truck that doesn't have it.
LOL, It HAS a deeper pan!! And they don't run much hotter, maybe 20 degrees, if used properly.
"Sure it is?" You clearly don't know damn thing. Thats right, you drive a manual shift. So you are basing your argument on the longer engine oil intervals? WTF? You've got nothing, shut up.
4000? Wow, you take the cab off to change the fluid?
None of them do. Your point is moot.
Three screws, wow thats hard.
I'm not as dumb as you are I guess, since you apparently stand UNDER the trans and on TOP of the drain pan.
Use a good sealer, and there are no worries.
Make sure the cab is lined up square.......
Wow thats tough, a little restraint and attention to detail, something you should use with anything mechanical.
This neat invention known as a "funnel" eliminates the prayer part of it, not to mention making it very easy. I put 10 quarts in a 4L60E yesterday using a funnel. It took me 5 minutes, because we test drove it to get it warm to be sure the fluid level was accurate on the dipstick.
By whose standards? It takes longer to wash the damn truck than it takes to change the trans fluid. I bet you do that more than twice a year.
Yeah, and your "4000 bolts" are real accurate as well.
Or the factory cooler is insufficient. I have the factory cooler on my
2001 Ram QC 1500. I also put a deep mag-hytech pan on the tranny and a temp guage. It runs hot.
When pulling my trailer up grades in the summer it will climb to 240+. I have no idea why as several techs have said the factory cooler should be sufficient.
One thing that bothers me is the routing is through the radiator. That would seem to prevent the tranny fluid from ever cooling below the water temp which is 200+.
Temper, temper Maxi, I wouldn't want you to blow a gasket :-) The fact is that to perform that service, you still need to open the transmisssion which indicates that in its initial design, this level of service was not expected.
Well, now you are saying that you need to purchase a $600 option just to get what the damn thing needs in the first place, LOL! Sounds cheaper to go with the aftermarket AND get better stuff for less.
Always conditions on your answers.
Temper, temper, Maxi. You just hate it when I'm right.
It was sarcasm maxi, unless of course your cab is actually held on by over
3900 bolts.
Really, perhaps you should look at the Allison 1000. It also has an external filter making these changes easier than an oil change. I guess that Allison and GM were thinking ahead when they designed this unit.
Not hard, but messy and unnecessary when the filter could be converted to an external spin on type and again, you still have to remove the pan to get to those 3 screws.
Please explain how you remove the filter without it dripping fluid on your arms. I can't wait to here this magic.
Yea, and too much of that good sealer and you screw up the trans and it also makes the pan that much harder to remove the next time.
It just adds time and risk to the procedure which further demonstrates that this level of service was never intended with the design of this trans. Do you remove the oil pan at each oil change or pull the water pump everytime you change the anti-freeze?
Actually, I was referring it pissing out from a bad seal on the pan gasket.
But it is much easier to wash the truck (ever hear of a car wash) and BTW, I don't anymore. Since DC great painting techniques have the paint on the hood and front fenders delaminating, it is not worth the trouble.
About as accurate as you thinking that many hold the cab down on your truck.
Good to know, thanks. One more thing. I have 25k on my truck right now. I usually prefer to change my own fluids, however there is the whole band adjustment thing which I would rather not mess with. So, is it wise then to take it in and let the dealer do the tranny? I will, in turn just change the trasfer case and diffs myself.
It's really nothing to be intimidated about. Just pick up an inch-pound torque wrench (you don't need to go overboard here... I use a $25 wrench I bought from Harbor Freight). The front band can be adjusted without removing anything... the rear is adjusted when you have the pan off. You loosen a locknut with a wrench, tighten the adjuster to 72in.lbs., then back it off a prescribed number of turns (varies from year to year - either check a service manual, or post your exact config. here), then just re-tighten the lock nut. It really is that easy, and shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to to both.
Only if you feel the above is beyond your skill level (and trust me, it isn't).
And again, the exact same thing can be said for the Dana 44, 60, 70, 80, Chrysler 9.25", AAM 9.25", 10.5", 11.5". Are you disassembling the axle when you change the fluid? No - you're removing a cover.
If you don't tow, you don't need it. If you tow, you need it. Seems pretty straight-forward to me. And included in that cost is the aux. cooler, the receiver, wiring harnesses, bigger battery, etc. Oh, and by the way - that trailer tow option? It's a $350 option - not $600. Again, you make rediculous exaggerations to try and bolster a failed argument.
Sure - you gonna get all that, AND get it installed (and, oh yeah, warrantied) for less than $350? Go for it...
That would be the one that wants 12,000mile fluid changes, right?
Well, for me - I remove the screws, holding the filter in place. I then grab the filter by the one end, pulling it down and away. The fluid drains into the catch pan, and I don't get any on me.
It's amazing how you can deduce that from the construction of the unit - especially when it clearly states in the service manual to change the fluid and filter at regular intervals. I keep going back to this, but based on your twisted logic, the same can be said for the axles, as well. "Clearly, they were never designed for this level of service". You have to remove the SAME amount of fasteners to change their fluid. AND... according to DC, you have to do it TWICE AS OFTEN as the transmission fluid (yep - they now spec. out 15,000 mile fluid changes on front and rear diffs). So, the ONLY difference between doing a transmission fluid change and a differential fluid change is the three (I could swear it's now two screws) Torx screws holding the filter in place. That's it, Tom.... same gasket issues (as the AAM's now have a reusable gasket as well), same number of fasteners, and in the case of the 11.5" rear, about the same amount of fluid (4qts.) - though I'll argue that it's easier dumping in a gallon of ATF through the dipstick with a funnel than it is getting those bottles of gear oil up and into the diff fill plug hole.
So - why is it acceptable (or is it even acceptable in your eyes? Maybe all axles out there are crap in your esteemed estimation, as well?) for a differential to require a cover (pan) removal, but not a transmission?
LOL, boy Tom, your noise levels are reaching all new highs. As for the axles, unless you are under heavy duty schedule B or what is actually a heavily used commercial vehicle, you never have to change the fluid in them, at least according to the 97 FSM you don't. This would indicate that they are also not designed with this level of maintenance in mind for the average user.
Funny, that is not the thought comming from the trans experts in here. According to them, you always need it.
Were you there when I ordered my truck? That is what I had to pay for it and $250 more than you claim is far from a rediculous exagguration. The only rediculous exagguration being made here is comming from you.
If you only want to keep the transmission cool, you don't need a receiver, wiring harness for it or a bigger battery unless they perform some other function along those lines that the rest of us are unaware of.
Yea, and the one with the EXTERNAL FILTER as well as the DRAIN PLUG and BTW, the GM site claims every 30,000 but then again, you are probably looking at the most extreme schedule again.
And how do you get the screws out without it dripping fluid on you or do you wait for an hour or so for it to stop dripping.
It says so for extreme duty applications which you all seem to think that you fit into. The average truck owner is nowhere near a heavy duty schedule B type of use.
And again, only the heavy duty schedule B even mentions the axles. This would also indicate that for the greater percentage of owners, changing fluid in them is not required.
Hey, you finally got it. For the average owner, they ARE NOT!!!
Perhaps because they are using lower quality components or you are once again, using the most extreme schedule.
I was not talking about the axles here so I said nothing about them at all so how do you know what I find acceptable or not????
now normally i would leave well enough alone and stay out of these arguements....but here i go against better judgement.
i havent seen anyone state that you ALWAYS need em.
ok out of a general motors owners manual for a 96 S series severe service/short trip definitions:
most trips are less than 5 to 10 miles (especially important in sub freezing cond) most trips include extensive idling (defined further as frequent stop and go) you operate your vehicle in dusty conditions or off road you tow a trailer if the vehicle is used in an emergency service, taxi, or commercial application
hmmm off the bat even for my old s15 i see 3 that apply and im betting the vast majority could find atleast one of those.
MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.