US Auto makers may become extinct, caused by Unions

Like I said before Miles, I don't see the management in many of these companies willing to make life changing cuts in their salaries and benefits to keep these companies in the USA. Sorry Miles, many of these companies just use the workers wanting to make a wage they can actually live on as an excuse to leave without the bad rep. Much easier to pass the blame or use the term "global market". Many of these companies have left the US on claimed losses while they were still highly profitable. They based their losses on "expected growth" that they didn't achieve, IOW, fuzzy math and most people fall for this BS. Even if the unions gave in to all these claims, these companies would leave anyway because there is no way for the American worker to take enough cuts to compete with the pay in the 2nd and

3rd world economies or for this country to back off on the costly ecological restrictions that many of theses countries simply ignore. If they are going to go anyway, let them go now and hopefully the American people will put a stop to it and buy no products from these companies and be willing to perhaps pay a little more for products made in the USA but it will take a while since most Americans need that 100,000 MPH kick in the balls to wake up and do the right thing, sometimes. Perhaps when enough jobs are lost we will wake up but sometimes I wonder.....

Why is it always the corporations fault? It works both ways. What you seem to forget is the main purpose a company is in business for. You seem to go the social extremes and wish that companies were all just non-profit social welfare providers. Fact is a corporation is started to make money. If a union gets to powerfull and makes it difficult to compete in a global market then they move elsewhere. You can cry all you want, whine about how bad they are but tough...they're gone and what are you doing about it other than whine? What are you willing to do to keep the companies here?

I think I just figured it out, Miles. . . .

On Star Trek, a science fiction FANTASY program, no one works to make a profit / income, they work because they want to. All your sustenance, lodging and clothing comes from somewhere, probably a governmental agency, and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity.

And Tom thinks that's the way it should be . . . . .

that's a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesn't fit yoou well, you use stupid analogies.

you also don't do miles any justice. he, at least is trying to argue based on his beliefs.

i don't agreee with miles, but i repect the guy. after all, we are all just products of our experienes and it sounds like a couple of his family businesses had financial trouble that the unions somehow made worse.

you, on the other hand, as i recall, are just pissed off because some workers got screwed and the union didn't help them. at least, that is what i remember you saying a while back. oh yeah, that and that unions are dinosaurs. i'm still trying to figure that one out.

Yep, that pretty much seems like his ideal situation.

I have worked from both sides and therefore see both sides of the fence. Most have not done so. When it is your own time and life invested into a company of your own then and only then can you understand the other side. Otherwise workers think everyone in the corporate world above them is arrogant and greedy and don't deserve what they have. I know better than that.

Didn't have financial problems. The unions certainly did try to run us out using strong arm tactics but they failed. The little guy won and the non-union employess benifited from fighting back against the unions.

No, it fits T-Bone's attitudes that the developers / managers of business should not be rewarded according to their efforts.

Actually, I respect Miles highly, but appears from your reply you don't want to see that and admit it.

Probably so. Many unions have no more mission than to take over the management of a mid-sized business so they can control operations and they do it under the guise of supporting employee needs.

Ya know, I'll just bet you've never faced an eviction that would toss you and your family into the street because your union failed to provide strike pay, or had to beg family members for money to feed your children because Welfare didn't, in that time / place, consider being on strike as reason for food stamps. Or watched a union called strike (no rank and file vote taken) force an entire town of 45,000 into an economic depression.

"Pissed off"???? No, it's just that these stupid rants about the "virtues" of unions are outweighed by the fact that they have outlived their usefulness, that they need to be fossilized in the museums with the dinosaur bones since modern laws enforce better employee treatment and wages. But let's not forget the role played by money / dues / benefit grubbing unions in the 10x average inflation of consumer prices since the mid 60's.

There, that should clear up your confusion. If not . . . . then you just might be a deceived union member.

or, you might be ignorant.

your all or nothing sensationalism in your post pretty much points to the latter. you really need too get a grip budd. slow down, relax and look at things with some perspective. nothng is black and white, it is all shades of grey. you really sound like some guy sitting in a bar with a beer in his hand,wearing a windbreaker with the name of the bar on the back of it, yelling and ranting, with no one listening.

Really, name one. All I hear from you is the big bad unions, never that managemnet dropped the ball.

Either you have the biggest family in the world, or you are full of shit. Every time I ask you to back something up, you come up with this family crap yet never actually give a name. What is the name of the business and what union attacked them. Since this should all be public record, I'm not asking for anything private.

Miles, I'd expect you to look at both sides of a issue. Please read up on the demise of Eastern Airlines with a open mind. I'll see if I can find a link tonight.

Roy

Roy

There is a ton of stuff Miles, also on Frank Lorenzo, Easterns owner, either yahoo or google. Just trying to point out that horrible stuff happens on both side of the street.

Roy

Where did I say it always was? In all cases where the fault is poor planning, it is. The workers do not run the company or make the big decisions now, do they? That is the job of the highly paid execs and for that matter, the reason that they are so highly paid. The problem is that when the company runs into trouble due to poor planning, they seldom take any responsibility for it. Much easier to pass the buck on such made up terms as " the global economy".

While true, each case depends on the situation.

LOL, I do no such thing. I have no problem with workers making concessions as long as the people responsible make the same ones or perhaps a little more if they are the ones to blame.

Really Miles? I thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is.

Not a damn thing if I can't make a living wage working there, what would be the point? The point that you and those like you fail to see is that if the businesses lay off everyone that may buy your product or service, who is going to be left to buy it? Just a quick look at the trade deficit shows the writing on the wall. The people in these other countries cannot afford to buy the products now produced in those countries, they are still bought here. When the pay level of most Americans falls far enough, we won't be able to afford them either and then what are these greedy execs going to do? The answer is nothing because they already have more than enough money and really don't give a f*ck. That seems to be the new thing with American businessmen, squeeze the sponge for all it is worth and cast it aside.

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:55:13 -0500, "Roy" wrote:

i second what roy said. but keep in mind that it isn't just the headlines where this is an important issue. in my opinion it is behind the headlines where this union/management issue takes on its most important facet. it is in the lives of individual people that i am the most concerned about. as i get older, i have spent some time thinking about values and what i would like to be remembered for. about what is really important in life. while making money and having toys is important and i like money and toys, it isn't the most important thing and it isn't what i want to be remembered for. fairness with my relationships toward people is much more important. how we interact in the business world with people and how we treat them is really bigger than anything else. that is a legacy that you will leave and the real struggle in america is on the individual level. i believe in capitalism and wish you well in all your pursuits, but all things come into conflict and only when you know your priorities can you act in concert with them. when the right to make big sums of money comes at the expense of the workers rights to have a secure and fair work place, the latter wins in my book. look, i have been on both sides of the fence. management rights at this point in time are at a high in the post war economy. i see it every day. there are alot of managers in the private and public sector that see employees only as a means to an end, their end. without unions, there is very little job or discipline protection. period. the law does not currently support the worker. now the worker can just turn the other cheek and take it or they can do something to even the playing field. the unions are that avenue. yes, the unions go too far sometimes but so does management.

the point that you just can not grasp is that you and the workers have to have a relationship for your business to work. if the workers chose to do that through a union, that it their right. pure and simple. in that case, if you want to have a good business that is ethical, fair to workers and successful in business, you have to have a relationship with the union. period. you have to try to understand what the union represents and why it is of importance. that means that you have to do two action things: you have to listen and you have to try to empathize. i mean listen as in listening to the message, not just listening as you do here so you can build an argument against what is said, but actually listen. empathy is that second part.

this thread just kills me. you want to rail about unions because of thier exccesses, but that is stupid. it just opens you up to the same philosophy. we can rail (probably to greater degree) about mgt excesses. you trivialize what the unions represents. as long as you do that you will never ever really be able to dig beyond the headlines and get to some creative solutions.

come on miles, get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue.

Let's face it, there have been some union's or locals, that have been horrible. What I don't understand is why the members have not voted them off the property or de certified them.

I also think in the past 30 years the unions that did run amok have been curtailed quite a bit.

Roy

i think you are right. i am certainly not trying to give the impression that unions are blameless. just the opposite, my point is the unions are here and management is here and the whole blame game is pointless. it centers on the past and we need to live in the future. unions have a legitimate purpose and so does management.

anyway, i agree with what you have posted here about this.

on another subject, how is the snow? you are probably tired of it, but out here we are getting a big blast of arctic air and are pissed because the moisture does not seem to be developing to give us snow. i will hope for a little snow to play in this weekend.

And you could be just plain nosey.

So? If that's what I want to do, what's it to you? Personally, I think you should spend more time minding your own business instead of telling me how I should be. If you don't like me, kill file me.

ROTFLMBO!!!!

You dare try to tell me how I should be and you don't even know who you're correcting in this post from T-bone.

that seems to be your mantra lately. i don't kill file anyone budd. i read pretty much everything from everyone. everyone has a good point from time to time.