94 Explorer VIN X V6 runs for a minute and dies

The saga continues....

Recently rebuilt the upper engine new gaskets and had valves ground replaced valve stem seals, heads ground, injectors cleaned and replaced 2 lifters.

Put it all backs together and started first try. Purred like a kitten, for a minute anyway.

Changed the oil, coolant,and plugs. New coolant temperture sensor and purge valve solenoid, plus crakshaft position sensor.

Fuel pressure is good and steady.

Hooked up a timing light and pulsing light steady. Coil pack tested within within range.

Had the Ignition Control Module tested at Autozone and tested OK 3 times.

I start the car and it runs for about a minute and regardless of RPMs.

Hooked up Code Reader KOEO and get the following codes:

111 -- All systems OK 10 -- Cylinder No. 1 low Cylinder balance test (had compression test and OK) 211 -- Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) signal (replaced CKP Crankshaft Position Sensor and no change)

When the car dies it has to sit for an hour before it will start again. If I crank it with the timing light hooked up the light pulse is steady as well as the fuel pressure, but no start. While I'm trying to burn up the starter :-) it will fire a couple of times and then nothing, but the timing light pulses steady while cranking.

HELP.......

Thanks Jim

Reply to
J Adams
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Forgot to mention; replaced fuel pump, fuel filter and air filter.

Reply to
J Adams

You need an engine in acceptable conditions, fuel and ignition.

How does the car die? Slowly dropping rpms until it dies, stumbles, sputters and dies, or all of the sudden.

When do you try to restart the engine right after it does, does it sound as if tried to run or just cranks without reaction?

Is the spark strong enough? The magnetic pick up on the timing light may trigger a signal even if the spark is not good enough to ignite the mixture.

Are all the engine grounds clean and tight?

Have you checked the signal to the fuel injectors?

Is it possible that while you replaced the engine something got into the exhaust system and is blocking it? This would not explain having to wait for an hour though.

What is the fuel pressure you have?

Good luck

J Adams wrote:

Reply to
AS

I'm with you on that part, I think. There seems to be breakdown in one of these areas. Correct?

If I take the RPMs up to 1500 it starts sputtering then dies. If I just let it idle, sputters once then dies. In both instances the running duration is about the same, roughly a minute

If I don't press the accelerator, no reaction. If I press the accelerator it trys to run, but only briefly, then no reaction.

This is an unknown and I hadn't thought that particular aspect. BUT that might be the key. If that is the case, why would it start and then sputter and die after a brief time. The more I think about that point it seems to be more the issue. The pulsing light is steady even as it dies.

Yes, I double checked those.

No, but when I try to restart the engine, if do it long enough, I can smell gas at the tail pipe. How do I check the signal, any suggestions?

Nothing could have gotten in the exhaust, it was in my garage.

Fuel pressure is 36psi.

Thanks, I need it at this point.

Reply to
J Adams

Because of the sputtering, I would imagine the problem being lack of fuel, but the fuel smell in the exhaust pipe when dead, kills this opinion.

Any chances of having the fuel rail fuel supply hose and return hose reversed?

Any chance of kids, or rodents putting something in the exhaust pipe?

Check the spark at the plug end of the spark plug wire. The spark should be able to jump at least 5/16" or 3/8". Do not get shocked, it hurts. Compare the spark while cranking when it runs and when it does not.

To test the signal to the injectors, you could tap into the wires for one of them and while cranking you should see the pulses, using a small lamp, fast response voltmeter or an oscilloscope. A different way would be having the ignition switch on while manually activating the crankshaft pos and camshaft pos sensors and listening for clicks from the injectors.

To bypass the injectors you could also spray some engine starting fluid right past the throttle body and see if the engine tries to run. If it does not, then you know the problem is electrical.

Remember that for the engine to run, the only critical sensors are the crank and camshaft position sensors.

Good luck!

J Adams wrote:

Reply to
AS

There are a couple of other observations I should note: The reason I began this project was the engine would have poor acceleration (weak power) and missing then progressed to missing even at a steady speed and sometimes die. But when it died it would restart easily which is not the case now.

1) After rebuilding the first start the engine sounded perfect. 2) The engine had set for a week while I did the rebuild. 3) After each start (after rebuild) now it is running progressively worse. It now is beginning to miss even at idle.

No, the fittings are different sizes

Yes, also I notice quite a bit of condensation (water) below the exhaust and black soot.

I will get a new spark plug and test that. Can I just remove any plug wire, insert test plug and lay it on the upper intake manifold for testing purposes?

Is any LED lightbulb I would get at Radio Shack suitable?

Would I remove the throttle body and spray into the upper intake manifold then reattach the throttle body?

As I had replaced the crankshaft position sensor (and coil pack) and no change I'm beginning to think your comment about fuel delivery may be the area where I need refocus. I'll do that after I do those items you mention above.

or a grenade :-)

By the way, I appreciate your input. Thanks

Reply to
J Adams

Let's try and figure out what prevents the car from starting, electrical or fuel system.

So lets assume it is lack of fuel. You disconnect the air induction duct from the throttle body when the car is dead, have someone depress the gas pedal all the way (to open the throttle body) and then spray the starting fluid at the same time the other person cranks the engine. If the problem were lack of fuel, then it should start.

This brings to mind something else, it could be excess fuel, engine flooded. Opening the throttle completely and holding it there while cranking, and not spraying starting fluid would make it possible to start.

The injectors are 12v solenoid valves, with the positive always on (when the ignition is on) and the negative controlled by the computer. So in getting the lamp, you know it is 12 volts and need one that draws as lil current as possible. Radio Shack item 272-1099 would work fine due to the low current. Item 276-272 is a 12V LED assy. but you may need to observe the polarity. I would go with the lamps.

Are the spark plugs fouled? The gap properly adjusted?

I do not think you need a new spark plug to test the spark, just expose the terminal at the end of the wire or use a small rod that does just that. Get the rod close to the cylinder head when cranking the engine and test the spark. I would grab the boot on the wire with insulated pliers. Do not get the rod close to any electrical or electronic components, just the head and do not short it to the head, keep a gap.

The water and black soot I would consider normal on a cold engine.

How did you adjust the gap of the crankshaft position sensor?

Other than lots of noise, what happens if you detach the cat converter from the exhaust pipe? Was the engine burning oil? Could the cat be plugged?

Just out of curiosity, where in the world are u? If you are in south east FL i can give you a hand.

Again, good luck!

J Adams wrote:

Reply to
AS

If I find out what is causing it not to start would that likely also identify the rough (missing) idle and rough running condition? I should note here that car only got about 12MPG city and 16/17 hwy. I read that I should get 15/17 city and 20 hwy. I'm not a lead foot, well ocassionally maybe.

Tried this with carb and choke cleaner

I had to this by myself and quickly.

1) Removed air duct 2) Sprayed some into open throttle body 3) Tried to restart, no start. 4) Sprayed lots 5) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started 6) Sprayed lots more 7) Tried to restart, yes, briefly started and longer than #5 This may have been more effective with another person helping Should note here on second start I took it up to 3000RPMs and it ran OK for a short time, 30 secs?, then started missing and died. Each time I tried to restart after that no luck with the exceptions using the carb cleaner.

Bought 272-1099 and soldered on 18" extension so I could see when attached to the injectors on the drivers side. What now?

Doubled checked gap on installation at 52. Given the vehicle has never ran more than a couple of minutes over a dozen or so attempts could they be fouled?

Got an adjustable gap spark tester, but will have to wait for assistant for trial (applies to injector test as well).

I didn't you could adjust the gap, the locating pin and bolts are a pretty tight fit. With the old or new the result was the same.

Would this be the next step?

No

How do I check for plugged cat conv?

I appreciate the offer, I'm in Tucson, Arizona

Thanks for all your input. You have been very helpful.

Reply to
J Adams

Having tried the spray, it seems that your problem is the fuel system and for now we can forget about the rest.

Do you have pressure fuel in the rail? You mentioned you measure it before but I am not sure if it was in the line or directly on the rail.

Now that you have the lamp, you can try disconnecting one of the injectors and connecting the lamp in its place, or you could tap into the wires using sewing needles or pins. Prevent the two pins from touching each other. Hook the wires to the pins. Crank the engine and see if the lamp comes on and off as the engine cranks. The second way is more cumbersome but more realistic as well.

If you have pressure and you have the signal going to the injectors, and you have the spark (would be nice to see the timing of the injector and the spark) the fact that it comes on when you use the spray would then indicate that injectors are for some reason clogged, or stuck, but in my experience, for the 6 of them to fail at the same time would be an oddity.

Some of the crank position sensors Ford used are/were adjustable; not sure in your particular car. If your is not, then you are set.

I now doubt that the plugs are fouled, but you can look at them and see that the insulator surrounding the center electrode is not look oily or black with lots of soot or deposits.

To check the cat c> >

Reply to
AS

I'm beginning to believe the issue somehow is related to fuel, but will have to wait until I have an asisstant to do a better job with the starting fluid. But if the fuel pressure is good, 30psi, and I don't smell gas at the fuel pressure regulator vaccuum line what could could cause the starving for fuel symptom?

Just stuck a automotive stethoscope on injector 1 and could here a steady click that varied according to the fluctuating RPMs. The reason I chose #1 is the KOEO error code, 10, for Cylinder #1.

Pulled #6 plug and looked fine

Checked gap and OK. As an aside, if the gap was off wouldn't that affect the start-up first.

Reply to
J Adams

On the rail at 30 psi

I used an automotive sethoscope and checked #1 and #2 and heard the steady clicking. I should also note that #1 sounded weak compareded to #2, but #1 is hard to get to so that I may not be getting onto the metal body. If I hear the clicking do I still need to do the lamp test?

I agree about all six at once, unless there is a voltage drop that would be too low to actuate the solenoid.

Mine is not adjustable, plug and play...

Pulled 2 and they looked OK.

Just started reading the article and the beginning lists all of the symptoms I'm experiencing and would make sense that as the engine warms up the symptoms become exaggerated. Since I was probably burning as much coolant as fuel that would certainly plug up the converter.

Now that I have repaired the the combustion chamber issues as in valves ground, new valve stem seals, head gasket, new plugs, etc. the load on the converter would be greater and creating excessive back pressure, if I'm reading this right. BUT why would it run so smooth right after the rebuild progressively get worse with each additional start the last couple of days. Of course having the car sit for a bit (between starts) would allow the converter to cool down. I guess its time to disconnect it and see what happens.

The burning of coolant must have been going on after I had a severe overheating issue a couple of years ago and now it may have finally caught up with me.

Hopefully, its the converter. At least the problem will be solved.

Reply to
J Adams

When do you hear the clicks?. I assume you hear them when cranking when the car is dead. I would hook up the lamp just to see that it glows as bright when the car is running as when the car is cranking but dead.

How old is the fuel in the gas tank?

From your previous message, the car ran when you sprayed the cleaner. Can you keep the engine running indefinitely if you keep spraying the fluid into the open throttle body? Or does it die anyway. You would need a helper, or a remote starter .

It is possible (is it likely?) that a bunch of dirt got to rail and got distributed to the injectors and that they are plugged, thus not allowing them to dispense the fuel? How difficult is it to pull out the injectors and examine them? I only suggest this because the engine ran when you sprayed the cleaner.

When the spark plug gap is too wide, it could lead to lack of proper ignition, but with the spray test, the electrical seems to be ok. Did you use the spark tester?

You might be interested in a clear spark plug to see the inside of the cylinder with the engine running. You can see the combustion and thus determine what is going on inside the cylinder, i.e. is it starving because of lack of fuel, or running rich because of lack of ignition or excess fuel?

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Knowing that you had the burning of the coolant, anything is possible inside the exhaust pipe, carbon blockage, plugged cat, etc. etc. It does not sound that crazy to separate the cat from the exhaust pipe and see what happens.

I th> >

Reply to
AS

I'm going to do this if the cat converter experiment fails.

3 weeks old

I tried that until flames shot out through the throttle body. It ran until the spray was used up in the intake manifold.

Died anyway.

No dirt could have gotten in. I cleaned everything again prior to assembly

It would only run briefly when spraying the fluid, 5 to 10 seconds max

I will be doing this test today also.

Cool tool. If the cat conv experiment doesn't work this morning then this looks like the next step.

After reading the article you linked to and the symptoms the indications are certainly pointing to this, a plugged cat conv. I'm going to remove and the shop light test and if I can't light thru it that will give me a very good indication it is plugged and proceed to starting and see how long it runs and if it misses. If runs longer than 2 minutes and doesn't miss then the problem has been indentified.

I had the annual emissions inspection just prior to the problems and all of the values were significantly greater than in previous years. In each case the values were 2 to 4 times higher than last year, but still well below the limit. These numbers are insignificant but they did show a big spike from previous years.

I agree, at least what it is not is definitely a step in the right direction.

Reply to
J Adams

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 23:43:20 -0500, AS wrote: Some of these I answered in the earlier post.

This one is moving up the priority list

3 weeks old

I tried that until flames shot out through the throttle body. It ran until the spray was used up in the intake manifold.

Died anyway.

No dirt could have gotten in. I cleaned everything again prior to assembly

It would only run briefly when spraying the fluid, 5 to 10 seconds max.

I used the spark tester set at 5/16' and the spark was consistent (Blue at the tips) when running and when the car wouldn't start

Separated the cat conv and it ran worse. It doesn't appear to be the problem. Did the visual comparison with a new one from Autozone per the article you suggested and they were identical.

Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves the injectors, what do you think? Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test.

111 system pass 10 cylinder #1 problem 111 system pass

Reply to
J Adams

On the injectors I attached the NOID light. When I used the NOID light after the no start situation begins it was very bright occasionally (each first attempt only) and pulse (weakly compared to first flash) but not consistently. I would assume the light light would pulse/flash consistently while cranking. Unfortunately, I did not do this test with the running and will now have to wait a while to be able to start it. I don't know if this is significant, just thought I would mention it because when I did the spark test it was consistent.

I used the spark tester set at 5/16' and the spark was consistent (Blue at the tips) when running and when the car wouldn't start

Separated the cat conv and it ran worse. It doesn't appear to be the problem. Did the visual comparison with a new one from Autozone per the article you suggested and they were identical.

Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves the injectors, what do you think? Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test.

111 system pass 10 cylinder #1 problem 111 system pass
Reply to
J Adams

According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and

30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't like it when pressure isn't up to snuff.

dave

Reply to
Hairy

Hi Dave

That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the PCM is bad.

When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was flooding it trying to restart it.

If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of electrical and fuel. So heres what happened.

1) Test for spark and condition of spark 2) Test for fuel delivery. 3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly) 4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing the coughing and sputtering from the engine. 5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until missing began, then the light missed as well.

****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM.

BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll see.....

Reply to
J Adams

The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the camshaft position sensor.

I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when you sprayed the starting fluid.

Good luck,

Alex

J Adams wrote:

Reply to
AS

Hi Alex

I found out the #10 is displayed as a seperator code. Which is why I get

111 system pass 10 cylinder one 111 system pass thought it was odd to get 111 after getting 10. If I got 111, 10, 111, 10 then it would indicate a cylinder #1 problem, of course I probably wouldn't get a 111 either by that reasoning.

Since you pointed me in the right direction. When I kept getting the KOEO 211 code (though only after a running engine), PIP signal, which would indicate the CKP. Replaced CKP and traced the wiring plus tested it for shorts or open circuit. I would never get a 211 code if I did the KOEO test then cleared the memory and reran the KOEO test.

I did the spark test and it was consistent even as the car was dying. The injector test light was different it would miss, pulsing light erratic in time engine missing/stalling. The only thing controlling the injectors is the PCM. The camshaft sensor provides information to the PCM so it can timing information for the injectors and the ICM for spark timing. At least that's my interpretation, am I wrong on that? If it was the camshaft sensor would I get a consistent and steady spark and have the injector test light fluctuate doesn't that indicate the PCM is bad? Now that I'm reading this I did not test injector with test light and spark simultaneously.

If I get steady spark and intermittent light pulses coinciding with missing/stalling wouldn't that point to the PCM. It doesn't rule the CMS out, but wouldn't begin pointing more towards the PCM.

By the way I've found quite a few uses for that test light with other circuits.

Reply to
J Adams

The camshaft position sensor tells the PCM when cylinder one goes into compression (the CKP cannot distinguish this). The camshaft pos sensor identifies cylinder one, and then, it the PCM sends signal to the right injector. The camshaft pos sensor is crucial for injector control.

Given the design of the coil pack, the crankshaft position sensor is only used for ignition control and it always sends spark to two cylinders simultaneously, one cylinder at compression and the other one at exhaust.

Check the camshaft pos sensor, that one could be the problem.

I am glad the light is working for you. ;)

Good luck, though i think you already found your problem in the camshaft pos sensor or the PCM.

J Adams wrote:

Reply to
AS

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