Ford to lay off salaried workers

One of the real problems with Ford and other manufactures is organized labor and the clinched fist around manufactures throats. I don't expect manufactures will get rid of unions completely, though I wish they could but, they should do everything to keep them in check.

Organized labor is one of the major problems with this countries workforces, not in all case, for sure the auto industry. Organized labor is a thing of the past and should be done away with.

----- Original Message ----- From: Newsgroups: alt.autos.ford Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 6:43 PM Subject: Re: Ford to lay off salaried workers

I come from a long line of farmers with a history of antipathy towards labor unions. However, having worked for a number of large corporations in my life, I have come to see labor unions as necessary, if not desirable. You may think that you are special and you don't need the protection of labor union, and you may be, but most workers would be treated as peons by most corporations if not for labor unions or the treat of labor unions. I have worked for two different companies where I was told that the number one goal of the human resources department was to make sure the company (or at least the part of the company where I worked) did not unionize. To keep unions out, these companies paid similar wages to unionized companies and provided similar benefits to unionized companies. However, I am certain that if the threat of unions was removed, the companies would have taken a much less enlightened approach to employee relations. You only need to review how workers were treated before labor unions became common to see what a world without labor unions might be like.

Ed

I, too, have worked for several large companies, both union and non-union. When I worked at Ford's Wayne Assembly plant back in the late 60's, early

70's, I thought the union was the best thing since sliced bread. That was my first union job, and I had just gotten out of the service. Man, what a difference in wage!

The last job I had (I'm retired now), I worked as a network admin at a plant here in SC that was not union, but the parent plant in Ohio is. The wages were competitive to the local area, but not so close to what the Ohio workers were making even though the actual cost of living here is higher than there- we have 3 military bases here, and that drives everything up. In Ohio, there is nothing but farming all around the town, and no large industry real close, so the COL is fairly low (I spent some time there throughout my 20 year career, so I saw what things cost).

While I think unions were very useful when they started, and are still useful to an extent, I feel they have way too much power. I don't think the government should step in (God knows, they've got their noses in too much stuff already!), but I do think there should be some checks and bounds somewhere in the whole earnings scale. When I worked at Wayne, it seemed every time we got a 2.5% raise, everything in Detroit went up 2.75%, so it felt like we never got ahead.

Don't know where I'm going with this (if anywhere), but just had to vent a little. Thanks for letting me post.

SC Tom

It never ceases to amaze me that a "free", anti-communist country like the US would embrace trade onions with such fervor. Trade onions don't usually make any distinction between a talented worker and a poor worker. Instead, we are all lumped together... bad with good.. and the only claim to fame is length of service. Trade onions can sap the desire to do better out of an employee... They wont elevate under-achievers to great heights... but they will take good guys down a peg or four...

The idea with communism is that we are all equal.... whether we are talented at what we do or whether we aren't.... The idea with trade onions is that we are all equal... whether we are talented at what we do or whether we aren't. These entities stifle any urge to be "better".

Me? I always strive to improve my lot in life... I hone my skills, I improve my product knowledge... I do those things that make ME more valuable as an employee... In an onion atmosphere, these things don't matter... That next promotion goes to the next guy in line - regardless of his abilities...

Trade onions? The only people getting rich are the deadbeats paid from the fruits of someone elses labour...

Ed,

The problem is that most of those mindless, repetitive, dangerous jobs that Unions helped to make safer have been automated. The blue collar jobs that are left are ones that require the worker to be much more educated.

In a world without Unions where the jobs require education, there would be a lot more wage disparity, since the workers who continued to educate themselves and become better and better would naturally command a lot more wages.

So it is quite understandable that the blue collar workers who are smart enough to use a computer and post here, or elsewhere, or otherwise make themselves heard, chafe against Unions. For them, the Union takes away, no question about that.

But, the workers who didn't or couldn't "get it" would end up losing a lot in wages.

You have to evaulate the societal impact. If your a smart guy, without a Union you would probably get more money.

But, what is the point if your taxes have to go up to support a larger government assistance program which would probably be needed to help keep the folks at the bottom of the barrel from starving?

My feeling is that if someone really, really hates unions, there are plenty of places they can work without one. If someone don't like working at a Union auto repair shop, then they can quit and go independent and open their own repair shop. If they are as good as they think they are, they will be quite successful.

I too think Unions have outlived their usefulness. However, unlike most people who seem to like running around and saying that, I do not see the union as detrimental to society. I see it as neither helpful, nor harmful. If people want to organize, great. If they don't, also great. If they are in a union and they want out, then quit and go work elsewhere. If they are not in a union and want to be in one, then once more, quit and go work elsewhere that has a union.

Fact is, I myself am a union member - of IBEW. However I am inactive, and have been for 20 years, since I don't work in a shop that is unionized.

Ted

Years ago when my Dad was still alive, he worked for (what was then) Alberta Government Telephones (now a privatized corporation called Telus).

Back then, the only way he was allowed to work for AGT was to become a member of IBEW... He felt about the same way I do regarding onions... All thew same, his onion dues were a freakin' payroll deduction... Not only did he have to join - but they made him feel like he couildn't be trusted to meet his dues on his own... nor was he given any sort of DEMOCRATIC choice.. Hmmm, the land of the "free", you say....

Monthly, he received a newsletter... including some heartfelt obituary notice.... Every month, he would read about some old fart in the US biting the big green wiener... Never once did I see an announcement indicating that anyone in Canada had passed on... Apparently, there weren't enough members in Canada at that time to make any fuss over - especially with onion dues being a payroll deduction.

Years ago, trade onons were valuable in gaining rights for workers... Canada was smart enough to enact labour laws to protect the worker making onions redundant.... Today, there is a very real chance that trade onions are only in existance to generate onion dues... and to make it hard for some corporations to compete on a global scale...

Even now, locally, we have onionized floor sweepers making a much as skilled workers.. WTF is that? Is it right that we should reward under-achievers?

Ted has it pretty well nailed... onionized workers.. the great proletariat... will have undeserving people riding on the coat-tails of those that actually deserve the financial recognition...

Onions? The word is "unions."

In the US, union dues are also a payroll deduction.

Take a look at what happened in NYC. The teacher's union was able to get real raises for the teachers last time, without any givebacks.

Why should people who perform a vital job get paid less than other workers?

If someone does a vital job for a company, that person deserves, IMHO, good healthcare, a fair salary, and benefits.

Jeff

Here comes a surprise... I make good money... bennies aren't the best in the world, but then it's my bed I'm making... I can choose for myself how I make it.

The reason I make good money is because I am good at what I do... I have gotten to where I am through my own efforts.

As far back as the late sixties... back when I dropped out of school.. The educational system was already beginning to deteriorate... Teachers were denied corporal punishment (yes, I got my fair share of that in my younger years... and I dispute none of it) as a means of retaining class attention and involvement. Teachers became lack-lustre.... Curriculum was being decided by those that didn't have to function in the real, wage-earning world... And our schools are now churning out some of the most useless human beings I have ever seen.

We have the "bell curve"... if everyone flunked the class, it must be the teachers fault... It certainly couldn't be students that don't concentrate or pay attention. And I'll admit that I know many teachers... most are chagrined that a grade 8 drop-out is earning more than they are... Given that teachers have the benefit of an onion - what is the problem?

None-the-less... trade onions smack of communism... good people are only as good as the pretenders... and this stifles the human urge to excell - to be better at ones craft.

In the early 70s, I was skinning cat on a onion jobsite for a subcontractor... The trade onion came in and cleaned house. Those few of us that weren't onion members were summarily dismissed.. but managed to get our old jobs back - at the same wage (less onion dues, of course) that we were previoulsy getting.... but only after some unemployed onion members decided they didn't want to work there. FWIW, the working conditions were brutal and the explanation would take several paragraphs.. it dealt with pouring molten sulphur into something akin to concrete forms and then, once it cooled, ripping and crushing the product to load into train cars.. you wouldn't want to expose yourself to this kind of torture.

The word is "onion"... it will always be "onion".. if you feel the need to have a trade onion doing your bidding for you, perhaps you might consider trying to rise above the crowd in your endeavours.

Disclaimer... it can be hard work to achieve ones goals in life... who woulda thunk? If I were trapped in a trade onion position today, I would not have those things that I enjoy on my life... No matter my talents - no matter my desire. There is every chance that I would be "Joe Average" and reduce my output to that level of mediocrity that trade onions defend....

Hear, Hear, Mr. Warman. 100% right on. So much of what you sais is right on!

Jim Warman wrote: