GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants

********That would be a change. Cadillac has been a pot of crap for a number of years. Corvette is superb for the price.

Hard to say where the truth lies here. Yes there were problems. Toyota says that if you change your oil regularly there is no problem. Also, there may have been some PCV modifications to prevent this. I have researched it carefully, and find that there is some doubt still about what really happened.

I can say that the Toyota is quiet, smooth, comfortable and economical. It is much more roadcomfortable than any GM I have driven lately.

Also drove a Passat. It drove wonderfully, similar to the Toyota.

Havent tried Honda yet. I know they had some tranny problems...Know why?? Because people didnt service them at the proper interval. Son has a couple, one of which had a tranny failure at 90,000 miles. The tranny shop told him it had never been serviced...and since they dont have filters, you MUST service them on schedule... whether true or not is up to you to comment.

Facts ARE however that GM has made a ton of crap, and has not bellied up and made good on it... the 3.4 engines with gasket and DexCool problems, the 3800 with plenum problems, and a whole host of other crappo deals.

GM needs to straighten up or belly up.

Reply to
<HLS
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Consumer Reports 2006 Buying Guide: Check rated, Good predicted reliability

"This crew-cab pickup has a supple and steady ride. Its 5-foot long composite cargo bed features an all-weather, lockable truck. The AWD system is permanent. Stability control is standard and handling is agile for a pickup. Jul. 2005"

I have not seen one in person. However my experience with CR is that they are pretty accurate about cars. If it has a 5-foot long uncovered cargo bed does that not make it a truck? If it is has a roof over the cargo bed it is then a SUV or station wagon.

Reply to
Pumbaa

It can be very helpful though, and I was mentioning it to the other guy who said you could not get navigation systems on US cars under 20k. Sure, OnStar does not have the little TV, but it still can assist you in finding your direction. I am in Ontario Canada, and we had a snow storm several days ago, and I passed someone in a ditch. I stopped and asked if they needed help and they said that they were fine as they used there Onstar to call for a tow truck.

Reply to
80 Knight

Hey, I live near Oshawa, too and my husband and I have both worked at GM over 20 years. I buy a new car every couple years and only had one Cavalier many years ago that was a piece of junk. Ironically, I bought it because it had been made in Ohio rather than Mexico. My family's experience has been excellent, as well. Also, we have gotten a few things "goodwilled", i.e. paid for (bearings on a Rendezvous, head gasket on a Venture), after the vehicles were well out of warranty. Sometimes you just have to ask.

GM and Toyota share the top quality awards. It is mostly a false perception, based on the past, that GM's quality is poor. The plant they are axing in Oshawa has the best quality in North America, of all the companies.

Jane

Reply to
Jane

Despite all the blaming of the unions (some of which may be true), consider another perspective: German manufacturers have to work with some of the most organized union structures in the world. Workers get 5-6 weeks vacation, good pay, benefits, etc. They are arguably better treated than the GM union workers.

Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and Volkswagen managed to keep a high level of production and profitability for years under such conditions. Certainly, the cars are not cheap, but have been perceived to be high end, quality, products.

Mercedes lost sight of that a while back during the Chrysler takeover, and management now realizes and accepts that they have to put back into the pot what they have taken out.

You can compete by being cheap, and you can compete by providing quality and desirability in a product. God knows what you might be able to do if you could bridge the gap between the two strategies.

For the system to work in America, people have to have jobs, and have to spend and dispose. Otherwise the entire economy is dead. Who will buy the Chinese phones, and outsourced cars if the buying middleclass disappears? It is a necessary evil.

There is NO John Galt.

Reply to
<HLS

Years ago VW combined the 2 (quality & low price) with their VW Beetle. As I recall, it was the world's largest seller for a number of years. Actually, IMO it was more of a perceived quality due to German engineering versus actual quality.

Reply to
Jerry

I believe Jaguar's quality rating and sales went down when they put in a Ford engine. This was likely due more of a perception versus reality - Folks want a JAG, not a Ford.

Reply to
Jerry

Oshawa - top quality product - closing Buick City - many JD Power awards - gone

3800 V6 - a fantastic engine for years - going away.

Sometimes it makes you wonder.......

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant. Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography

Web Site:

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Reply to
David Starr

Yes, it sure does. Two plants will remain in Oshawa, a second car plant and a truck plant, plus stamping and triaxle, so we're not a ghost town just yet (The axle plant is technically Delphi, although the employees still have bumping rights to the rest of the complex)

They need to ditch Wagoner...like, yesterday!

Jane

Reply to
Jane

Who cares if GM closes plants. Workers are overpaid for doing jobs trained monkeys can do. They want benefits and all sorts of perks not deserved by blue collar workers. GM designs the ugliest cars (exc vette) with the cheapest interior plastics. I wouldnt buy one. GM even had to use an Isuzu Trooper to win the Race Across Australia. Instead of greedy workers asking for more, they should accept a pay freeze and tell management to put the money into buying better components then quality will rise and then sales will too.

Reply to
bigjim

Why is it that GM and Ford and Chrysler for that matter, can't seem to build a solid reputation for a "type" of car. I mean Honda, Toyota have the reputation for being reliability/quality leaders. Subaru as a AWD and reliability leader, Volvo as a safety leader etc. Matbe the big three are trying to be all things to all people with the result of being only mediocre to non-pragmatic people. I research what I buy, before I buy it. I wouldn't touch a GM regardless of features-for-the-buck. Chrysler and Ford...Ditto. I'm glad GM had to sell off it's FHI (Subaru) interests. It only raises the Subaru name by doing so. GM is crap and until they figure out that long-term proven results with their vehicles will translate into market share. Bad results-declining market share. They cut their own throat with all of the heavy discounting, insulting advertising and shitty cars. Good riddance as far as I'm concerned.

Reply to
Grolsch

I think it depends on the dealership you go to. Some are very co-operative and will assist you in any way they can.

Tell me about it. Ticked me off something fierce when I read they were closing that plant. They need to fire that idiot in charge and get the company rolling again.

80K
Reply to
80 Knight

I read somewhere that the 3800 has been built (in varying styles) for over

40 years, and it is in my opinion the best engine I have ever owned or driven. I get 210 horsepower, 230 torque, all in a 4000 pound car that can do 0-60 in 7.8 seconds and still get 30mpg on the highway, and yet they still want to get rid of the engine. Makes me think that someone from Honda is actually running GM trying to ruin them....
Reply to
80 Knight

Its a minivan with the back chopped off. Trucks have frames and rear wheel drive.

Reply to
Eugene Nine

Many don't believe it will actually happen. Likely wishful thinking, but we'll see. They will want concessions, especially mandatory overtime. It may also depend on the dollar and other things we have no control over.

Jane

Reply to
Jane

Right here, for starters

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Here is an excerpt:

The wage model between Toyota and its supply chain is not markedly different from the Big 3's own supplier model. Toyota's own hourly wages are roughly the same as the wages paid to Big 3 assembly workers.

And here's for Honda

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Again, an excerpt: The foreign companies also pay well to minimize their workers' incentive to join unions, says Scott, a senior economist at the Economic Policy Institute. Honda, where employees have never voted to unionize, pays assembly workers $23.20 an hour, excluding overtime, plus bonuses that can take it to $26.67.

That's close to UAW wages, on average, for assemblers. Please don't cherry pick my posting - my point was that Toyota's and Honda's main advantages are a lack of legacy costs and better engineering. The biggest problem facing the US auto industry is POOR MANAGEMENT, not UAW wages.

Reply to
doug

Quality is definitely a major component to consider, when consolidating operations, but so too is profitablity. In this regard, Oshawa is said to be highly profitable and I have heard that Canadian operations account for some $ 500Million in actual profits, while many other divisions lose Millions. The only problem with the profitability numbers we are hearing for Canada is that intercompany pricing between parent and subsidiaries is fuzzy at the best of times. Any division can be made to appear profitable OR losing money, depending on inter-company pricing and Corporate whims. These decisions are most often tax driven. So it's really hard to know which divisions really are making money. Having said that, GM would have to be "dumb as a post" to close down any profitable division, given the sea of red ink they are mired in.

Jane, on the plus side, there's a lot of time before any job losses are actually scheduled to take place in Oshawa. There are good possibilities for any number of things to happen, including:

  1. The Grand Prix manufacturing line could be replaced with a new product line or even an existing product, should it be economically feasible.
  2. There is a strong possibility of government intervention at both the Provincial and Federal levels. Hey, we're looking at a Federal election in the new year - let's make it clear to local candidates that we want this on the election platform!
  3. Now here's a sore spot with many GM employees, but it's worth mentioning. Employees have to help themselves and set the example for the rest of us. Jane and 80 Knight, I encourage you both to take a drive by the employee parking lots of all the truck and car plants in Oshawa. I did it yesterday (before the snow started last night!) and I was appalled by two things; a) the number of non-GM cars in the employee lot; b) the number of non-North American cars in the employee lot. I would suggest to you that the percentage of Korean cars in the parking lot exceeds the Oshawa average. Christ, if GM employees don't drive their product, why should the rest of the population??? I say this with a certain amount of pain in my heart because I am a true blue GM guy, presently owning 4 GM products and zero non-GM products.
Reply to
StingRay

No, I wasn't kidding. I have not researched em. I heard the comment on CNBC some time back. I did have a rental one recently and liked it.

Reply to
Jerry

I remember once my Dad saying when he worked at the Oshawa plant and the Lada (if memory serves) came out, a couple workers bought one and brought them to work. They finished there shift, and went outside to find there cars destroyed. Not a good idea to bite the hand that feeds you.

Reply to
80 Knight

I think changed are coming for GM, but I think that the people on this group claiming the company will fall are just being idiots.

80K
Reply to
80 Knight

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