Doug, I am surely not jealous of any GM worker. I'm comfortably retired and
was quite well paid in the Tech. area during my working years. In fact, I
feel as well off as anyone and don't have an ounce of jealousy regarding
anyone. However, I do believe that the GM worker is overpaid and has too
much control over the company. I would have this same complaint with any US
industry with similar situations. Most of the GM union jobs could be
performed by McDonalds employees at a fraction of the cost. This is hurting
the US competitiveness in this global economy and that's what I was
attempting to point out. I actually expected some strong union folks to
take offense to my comments. That's fine by me, just mark my words - those
companies with unions as strong as GM's will not survive unless the unions
make huge concessions (unlikely - they are spoiled) . I find this sad.
Most GM employees know that they are overpaid for what they do and have many
more benefits than the GM competition. However, due to human greed, they
will not give up much in order to save the company - therefore, goodbye GM
and their union jobs.
So you don't think the UAW's recent give-backs on medical benefits is a huge
concession? Think again!
If you really want your car assembled by McDonalds workers...hell, that's
too insipid to respond to.
What you are really saying is that you don't believe that blue collar
workers are entitled to earn a fair wage.
Just as I suspected - a white collar elitest who chafes at the idea that a
person whom they consider to be beneath them intellectually and socially is
making a decent living. Overpaid is a loosely used term - just remember that
GM workers have received only cost of living increases for years. In
exchange for reduced pay increases, they negotiated for health coverage. A
pretty savvy move, I think. Not bad for blue collar workers, eh?
BTW - did you volunteer to give ANYTHING back when the scourge of
outsourcing in the tech/IT industry? I doubt it - as you said, you were well
paid and now comfortqably retired. Pushed out, no doubt, by the very same
Do you know there are many teachers in this country that don't do
better than that? And they pay for their education and the continuing
training necessary to keep up their certification.
I'm by no means anti-union; all I'm saying is for years people in that
industry ignored problems staring them in the face and are now paying
the consequences of it. During the glory days of manufacturing, we
didn't have a true world economy. You didn't have companies in
virtually all major Asian economies making goods that were exported
abroad, and those that were made things largely regarded as inferior.
One of the problems with business in general is it never changes until
the market forces it to, and then the correction is usually more
painful than it necessarily has to be. If things had changed sooner,
the pain would be less severe now. But you simply can't compete on the
world scale and pay the generous terms that were agreed to when that
competition was much less a threat.
Exactly. Here in Milwaukee, we've lost several large manufacturing
companies because they couldn't afford to pay the union contracts (that
yes, THEY agreed to) that were made in the 60's and 70's AND compete
with foreign manufacturers.
Yes... there's a reason why companies that employed 10,000 people
thirty years ago are now out of business.
I fear for anybody who actually has to depend on their pension for
And they do it by choice. My brother is a teacher - has been for 28 years.
He never complains about getting off on ALL holidays, weekends, and the
entire summer. I truly appreciate what is involved in their job, BUT,
they're always dry when it rains, warm when it's cold, etc. Their life is a
lot easier than the midnight shift on an auto assembly line.
And whose fault is that? Certainly not the autoworkers! It is the MANAGEMENT
of the auto companies that are to blame for designing non-innovative
products. And let's not forget the auto buying public and their insane lust
for monsterous SUV's. The industry has been satisfying that demand - but
with blinders on toward the future.
On the other hand, according to JD Power and other auto industry analysts,
the autoworkers are doing a great job of assembling what they are given to
work with - US auto quality is up, in spite of Detroit designers.
Sure you can - Honda and Toyota are paying their US workers close to what
UAW workers earn. Their biggest advantage (in addition to well engineered
products) is an absence of legacy costs. Their workers, per se, are no more
efficient than UAW workers. It's the assembly process that gives them an
edge. Again, management leadership.
Where did you get that erroronius idea? Toyotas average pay and benefits
package is only around 2/3 of what they pay their union workers in the
GM/Toyota plant in California.. Workers in the other Toyota plants, where
they merely assemble Toyotas of mostly imported parts, are being informed of
that fact by UAW organizers.
"doug" <Honda and Toyota are paying their US workers close to what
Right here, for starters
Here is an excerpt:
The wage model between Toyota and its supply chain is not markedly different
from the Big 3's own supplier model.
Toyota's own hourly wages are roughly the same as the wages paid to Big 3
And here's for Honda
Again, an excerpt:
The foreign companies also pay well to minimize their workers' incentive to
join unions, says Scott, a senior economist at the Economic Policy
Institute. Honda, where employees have never voted to unionize, pays
assembly workers $23.20 an hour, excluding overtime, plus bonuses that can
take it to $26.67.
That's close to UAW wages, on average, for assemblers. Please don't cherry
pick my posting - my point was that Toyota's and Honda's main advantages are
a lack of legacy costs and better engineering. The biggest problem facing
the US auto industry is POOR MANAGEMENT, not UAW wages.
Poeple can spin it anyway they chose but the fact reamins Toyotas average
pay and benefits package is only around 2/3 of what Toyota pays their union
workers in the GM/Toyota plant in California.
Do you own research, I don't do home work for my own grand children what
make you think I will do yours. I suggest you subscribe to Automotive News,
like I do, if you want to know what goes on in the automotive world..
I doubt the OP has ever been in an auto plant, let alone worked in one.
I retired in Feb as an electrician. In the year previous to my retirement, 4
other electricians in my plant were told that GM no longer had jobs for them.
All 4 had suffered in-plant injuries.
1. Torn bicep moving a platform to get to the job. A torn bicep can be
reattached up to 5 weeks after the injury. GM waited 3 months to send him
to a specialist.
2. Arm caught in machine and almosr severed at the elbow about 10 years ago.
Rheumatoid arthritis developed over the years.
3. Torn knee ligaments and cartilage after slipping and falling on an oily plant
floor. Knee now requires replacement.
4. Herniated discs after falling on a junk-strewn overhead catwalk. Surgery
brought very little relief.
All 4 of these had work restrictions dur to their injuries. One at a time over
the past year they were called to plant medical and told there were no longer
any jobs they could do with their restrictions. They were involutarily retired
on the spot. pensions were based on their years of service, 26 in most cases.
if they want to get disability, they have to hire a lawyer at their expense to
negotiate, or possibly sue, for a settlement.
Don't even mention the "legal services" plan. It's worthless. All the "lawyers
tell you is to go hire a lawyer.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography
Web Site: www.destarr.com
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You must have been one of those "4F's" that couldn't get hired into GM.
Sounds like a little jelousy going on here. Jerry, you just wish you
could spend 30+ years in one job and draw a decent pension don't you?
How about decent health care? Still got all your teeth? Can you afford
to buy Rx or are you on the Federal dole? Am I UAW? Hell Yes! I earned
every benefit I have! All you non union SCABs did in your life is
benefit from Union won gains. Free lunch? Ya right. Oh by the way,
there isn't one UAW member that earns $65 an hour. More like $26 and
Why don't you get a copy if the GM/UAW contract and read it(if you can)
then you will see the whole picture.
NOYK in Florida living on a decent UAW won pension from GM.
Buy American-----BUY UNION!
Hey, I'm not disappointed! I expected big negatives from lazy, greedy union
folks. Hang in there, you might be lucky and maybe the global economy will
collapse and the US become isolationistic. Then, you union turkeys can
regain their total control over US companies and have all your unrealistic
demands be met. Buy union?? - you gotta be kidding. That may have worked
40 years ago. Today, folks buy based on value for their buck. That's why
the strong unions days are numbered.
"No One You Know" < firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote in message
I would LOVE for the develping nations to be forced to unionize and
regulate their industries as we do. It certainly would be better for
the environment, AND it would allow America to actually compete as an
But since Chinese corporations have a base of BILLIONS to draw from,
they can fire any employees that demand ANYTHING, and have them replaced
with somebody who has comperable skills in literally hours.
Not greedy IMO - just looking for value for their buck. I live pretty close
to a huge GM facility. Yes, there are a lot of Japanese cars in their
parking lots. I suppose, I've seemed negative on GM cars. This is really
not the situation. In fact I have owned 6 Olds. and have was quite pleased
with all of em - still have 1. I have a new Audi and it has already been in
to the dealer for repair more than any of the Olds. My complaint is that I
feel the union power has put GM in a situation of likely bankrupsy - sad
IMO. The union benefits adds a bunch to the cost of each GM car, and thus
GM must sell em at a loss due to competition and hope for a profit on
financing the dude.
"Mike Hunter" < email@example.com> wrote in message
GM is not losing money on any vehicles they sell, they are just not making
as much. Many would like people to believe that GM sales are down when in
fact they are selling more vehicles than ever before in the expanding US
market In 1987 the total market hit 9,000, 000. In 2003 it hit 19,000,000
The unions leaders are not stupid. They have already agreed to cuts and
will eventually take whatever more cut are need to save GM. They will
likely loan GM money from their pension fund as they did to save Chrysler in
the past. Blaming the unions is a stretch in any event. Toyota and Honda do
not offer as good a wage and benefits package to their workers as does GM,
Ford and Chrysler yet their vehicles sell for 20% to 30% more, how come?
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