GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants

Ah yes, the dark side of Union Power .... threat, intimidation, property damage, even lethal force. I still remember during the trucking strikes of my youth when union truckers would stand on overpasses and drop rocks on the windshields of any trucks which were still on the road. Killed several people as I recall. That was a formative bit of news in my youth and left a very bad impression of unions ... that and the whole gang involvement bit along with the history of the mob and unions "investing" in Las Vegas in Vegas' early days.

John

I guess that you must only be talking about in North America, because your numbers on not even close on a worldwide scale.

John

Hey, if the guy drives his Lada into a GM parking lot, it should be destroyed. What about you, John? Will you suffer when the GM closers happen? If not, then shut the hell up. You take your Honda, Toyota and other pieces of foreign crap and drive it all you want. *I* will support the company who I should. The company who I respect, and the company who puts a *lot* of money into my community. Can you say the same? All I have seen from you is trollish behavior. If you hate GM so much then get out of the group, or stop bitching.

You keep saying that the foreign vehicles sell for a 20%-30% premium, but saying something loudly and often doesn't make it true. I just used the edmunds.com website to set up a comparison of V-6, automatic, mid-level trim (cloth) versions of the Camry, Accord, Sonata and Malibu. I don't know if the link will work, but here it is:

?op=0&tab=pricing&isbasecar=false&modelid=&styleid=&refid=&maxvehicles=5&vehicleindex=&removestyle=&numCars=4&just=center&modelId0=100506726&styleId0=100640401&modelId1=100505066&styleId1=100534615&modelId2=100506286&styleId2=100566046&modelId3=100506268&styleId3=100634257 Guess what, the Malibu pricing is mid-pack with the foreign competition. Where do you get the idea that a GM vehicles is prices way under comparable vehicles from foreign brands?

Then there is the whole resale value issue, where Toyotas and Hondas are much better than competing US nameplates.

Part of the problem is the addiction GM and Ford have to moving massive numbers of vehicles into rental and other fleets which then show up on the used car market in 6-20 months, pushing the used value of these vehicles way, way down. We routinely see 6 month old Cadillac Devilles advertised as ex-rental vehicles at local dealers for around $27,000. Pretty much kills the value of the new Cadillacs any poor fool actual bought new for over $40,000.

GM's October 2005 fleet sales were over 33% of their total volume! One third of factory output dumped into the fleets only to show up sometime soon as a glut of used cars. See:

The endless rebates also take money dollar for dollar out of the value of the used vehicles the poor customers paid hard cash for.

GM's problems are vast and deep and every part of the organization has become part of the problem, management and labor leadership included.

John

Destroying those Ladas was very stupid. If they had just waited a few years the Ladas would have self destructed and demonstrated their very poor quality.

Continuing to support GM when they have demonstrated very poor management is just sticking ones head in the sand. I feel very sorry for the GM workers who are watching their company fold around them, because of very poor management.

Many of us (me included) were strong GM supporters and users, but have recently been frustrated with the poor designs they have been marketing. In addition GM importing cars from Korea and soon China simply demonstrates they are off track. IMO the GM workers would be better off if a very well managed company such as Toyota took over the GM plants.

Another example of poor management is Stelco. They are a basket case, yet next door Dofasco, the kid on the block, has been doing so well a European company has offered an excess amount of cash to buy them out.

Unfortunately company history is full of stories where poor management has caused company failure. The only solution is a complete overhaul of the company.

Actually I own a 2002 Olds Silhouette that I paid my hard earned cash for. I don't hate GM, actually I am very sad about the current situation.

I do have a deep disrespect for the use of thuggery to get your way, and trashing a co-workers vehicle because you disagree with his or her purchasing decision is nothing but thuggery.

Friends who only give one praise may help a person *feel* better, but it is accurate constructive criticism which carries the power to help a person or organization *be* better.

Most of my career was spent making non-Intel microprocessors, but it never occurred to any of us to destroy the home computer of a co-worker who bought something with Intel Inside.

I could care less what you think you have seen from me. All I see from you is mindless boosterism and approval of those who use force to get their way. Sounds like you are just another chest pounding thug. Go ahead, yell and scream all you want. It will not do you any good and will probably just contribute to your own poor health. Maybe it is you who need to "get out of the group". This is just an unmoderated usenet newsgroup, hardly a special club :).

John

So true, but it does create very good value for purchasers of one to three yr old leased cars. My '95 Concord was a one year lease (only 10Kkms and over 25% off list). My friends '96 Taurus was a two yr lease. Ford leased over 50% of Taurus cars for many years.

On the other hand that quick depreciation may make no difference to many buyers. In '94 another friend had a very good price on a Taurus wagon. Here other option was a Honda and the Honda correctly pointed out that the Honda would be worth much more in 2 or 3 years. She asked me my opinion. I asked her how long she planned to keep the car and she replied as long as it gave good service. With her mileage of about

1Kkms per month I suggested that there wouldn't be much difference in value after the 10 yrs she would probably keep it. She bought the Taurus which she liked best and still has it, still providing very good economical service for her.

I'm sure the Impala was a big percentage of those fleet sales. They are a fine car for rental and taxis, but not to my liking based on the 2005 Impala I rented in Sep. So so handling and an old tech non adaptive transmission.

No offence, but your posts seem to indicate you have a hatred for GM.

In this instance I would have to disagree. However, if memory serves, the guy's insurance company did buy out the car and he was able to get a new one.

In Gm's case, I feel they do need improvement in certain area's, that I will agree too, however I can not stand it when people come on here claiming how they 'don't care' if GM were to go totally belly up. No, you did not do this, but others have.

Computers are very different then auto's, but how pleased would you and your team have been if other co-workers started bringing Intel computers to work?

Actually, I am on this GM group to try and help others who may have problems with there vehicles. I rarely get into this garbage until someone says something that I consider ignorant.

By the way, seeing how you did not answer my question, I will assume the answer is no. I on the other hand, as well as many others will suffer a great deal when the shifts are shut down. Most of my family work either in the Oshawa plant or for GM in some capicity.

Hey, I am all for getting new management and what not into the company. They need new people with new idea's. But, I'm sorry. I can not stand 'non big 3' cars. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia. Heck, I don't like many Chrysler's or Ford's, but I have always liked GM's vehicles. I look at Honda's and they just make me sick. The style (IMHO) is just terrible. Sure, they can get

30Mpg, but so can my Bonneville, and it has a hell of a lot more power, room and luxury. You know something, I honestly don't think anyone can understand what it is like to live in this part of Ontario without growing up here. The Oshawa GM plant is a huge part of this place. It gives a lot of people jobs, and does a lot for the town, and the surrounding ones. Just the mere thought of what is going on actually happening sickens me, because I know the impact it will have on my family, and countless others. Some of you seem to think that working 40 hours a week doing the work these people do for $25 an hour is the easiest thing in the world. Well, go ahead and give it a try. Do it for one week, and then tell me what you think of it.

Ford and GM either cannot, or do not want to produce a quality passenger car. This is a fact!

I tend to believe they have lost the capacity to produce competitive quality passenger cars a long time ago. They have been losing market-

-share in all metropolitan areas, for years now, and in some places like California it is almost unthinkable to buy a GM or Ford passenger car product.

What keeps these two zombies alive is three things.

First, they own some foreign brands, and also sell some of their cars to unsophisticated consumers in places like China, Eastern Europe, Middle East, etc.

Second, they control rental companies to whom they sell a lot of their passenger junk.

Third, their extensive network of dealerships in rural and semi-rural areas gives them a certain degree of monopoly in those markets. Consumers in rural America just have no alternative but to buy their products. If Nissan, Honda, Toyota, and others had even a half-decent network of dealerships in small town America GM and Ford would be wiped out of the passanger car bussiness altogether!!!

The foreign, and rental business, plus a few niche products like the Corvette, Mustang, would not be enough to keep Ford and GM in car manufacturing. Both companies would become pick-up truck and van/suv manufacturers exclusively.

MN

There is definitely a price to be paid for the income and benefits we enjoy. When I started there in '82, you could look forward to getting off the line in about 9 years. With productivity improvements and outsourcing, those days are long gone. Most of us will be on the line almost our whole career and will retire disabled in one way or another. I've had surgeries on both my hands. My husband has had skin rashes from lubricants in the air guns (has been tested at St. Mike's). Not to mention the mind-numbing nature of the work. Fine; we made the choice to work there (I have a science degree, but went to GM because it paid better than contract work for the MNR and because I could forget my job at the end of the day). GM has allowed us a pretty good life and we've been able to invest along the way in case our pensions are lost.

There is some "dead wood" in there (as there is anywhere), but they are few and far between. Most of us work our butts off.

Like said your are entitled to you own opinion but I stopped buying foreign cars some time ago because they cost much more than their domestic competitors cars. I have yet to find any of my current, or previous domestic cars, to be of poor quality. To the contrary, the have all been well built quality cars that perform as good or better they any foreign cars I have owned. I no longer need to put up with the arrogance of foreign car dealers who seem to think they are doing me a favor buy letting me buy one of their overpriced cars. More buyers feel as I do since they buy more GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles than Toyota or Honda and THAT my friend is a fact ;)

mike

Get real, where do you guys come up with this stuff. Having owned a fleet service company I can tell you every manufacture offers a discount to fleets that averages between $400 and $600. To be assigned a fleet discount number the fleet has to have at least five vehicles. No manufacture can shuffle cars to rental car companies, period. Manufactures can not sell cars to anyone except their dealers, it would violate franchise law. Fleets like everybody else buys the vehicles that they believe to be the best value. Fleets like individuals must buy their vehicles from franchised dealers. To retain ones fleet discount numbers, fleets must keep their vehicles in service for one year or till the introduction date of the next years models. Ford sells around 80% of corporate fleet sales because they have proven to be the most cost effective vehicles for corporations. Unlike rental car companies, were the cars are the 'product' of their business, corporate fleet vehicles are just another 'tool' used in their business Corporations look at the total cost over time of acquisition, insurance, parts, maintance, repair and replacement of their vehicles and Ford vehicles over the years have been the best in that regard. . Corporate fleets, generally keep their vehicles in service for five years or 300k WOF because of federal tax deprecation laws.

mike

"Spam Hater" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@news.telus.net...

Who pays MSRP? Go out into the REAL world of car shopping. I just bought a

2006 Lincon Zephyr for my wife for $5,500 less than the Toyota dealer wanted me to pay for the V6 Camry she thought she wanted. The important price is the total drive home price, not the selling price. One can drive home any domestic for at least 20% to 30% less than a Toyota or Honda of the same size, summarily equipped. Indeed a three year old 4cy Camry, listed in NADA, is worth $4,000 more than a V6 Taurus, but the Taurus had a drive home price $6,000 less when new. It returns more of its original investment. Just look at the sales figures for the Vibe and the Matrix. Most buyers know, that except for trim, they are basically the same car. Even with Toyotas so called superior resale value, far more astute buyers are buying the Pontiac. Why? Because the actual drive home price averages $2,500 to $3,000 less when summarily equipped. Pontiac dealers offer bigger discounts, higher trade prices, and GM has higher rebates and far lower interest rates, than Toyota. When it come to retail value, although the Matrix is rated higher in NADA, the Vibe, like the Taurus, has a better return on the original investment since it returns a higher percentage of the original drive home price than does the Matrix.

mike

?op=0&tab=pricing&isbasecar=false&modelid=&styleid=&refid=&maxvehicles=5&vehicleindex=&removestyle=&numCars=4&just=center&modelId0=100506726&styleId0=100640401&modelId1=100505066&styleId1=100534615&modelId2=100506286&styleId2=100566046&modelId3=100506268&styleId3=100634257>

You are free to spend your money wherever you wish ;)

Well, I have a 1990 Hyundai Excel that has made 85k miles without a single major, or minor repair (the fuel pump was replaced which can be treated as a maintenance item). Of course this does not mean that Hyundai's of the late

80s, or early 90s are or ever were reliable cars. It seems I was just extremely lucky! Perhaps you are lucky also.

Here you have an extremely valid point. Ripoffs and disrespectful treatment seem to be far more prevelant at import car dealerships than at domestic. This is a pity.

I guess the catch is "vehicles" but not passenger cars. Ford and GM sell tons of pick-up trucks which account for the difference.

So yes, perhaps more buyers buy GM/Ford/Chrysler vehicles than Toyota/Honda but I think you are gravely mistaken claiming that they all feel as happy as you do, because many are likely not willing buyers, but are forced, as no alternative to the oligopoly of Big 3 exists (Honda and Toyota have a very patchy network of dealerships in small town, rural America). This is why Ford/GM are still around, and not bankrupt yet!

MN

Were, in your dreams? ;)

Six months sales figures individual vehicles

. Ford F-Series 432,969 . Chevrolet Silverado 322,907 . Dodge Ram pickup 223,609 . Toyota Camry 213,625 . Honda Accord 192,106 . Ford Explorer 168,059 . Honda Civic 162,483 . Ford Taurus 144,035 . Chevrolet Impala 139,460 . Dodge Caravan 131,367

mike

I have no affinity for domestics. From what I saw in my business every manufacture is building high quality dependable vehicles today. I personally believe, with all of the good vehicles on the market today, there is not valid reason to pay more to buy a foreign vehicle and add to the trade imbalance. As to the Korean cars if I were to chose to have my money leave the country I would buy a Korean car before a Japanese car because of the pricing.

mike

The dealer experience is one of the main reasons I stick with foreign brands (though my latest acquisition, a 2006 Subaru Legacy, was built by Hoosiers in Lafayette, IN). US dealers treat customers like cattle with checkbooks. I've consistently received more courteous, customer-oriented service from foreign brand dealers who seem to realize customers are their "bread and buttter."