Yes, you are right. I do think it's important to note though,
that you will "never" have any warranty claim denied if you
simply use the factory type of air filter. I think it's also safe
to say that GM would not release this type of bulletin if
they hadn't run into this problem. Obviously, somewhere...
someone...has over oiled their filters and it has caused
problems. I don't blame GM for not wanting to pay
for damages that "do" stem from this type of thing.
From what I see on a daily basis, GM doesn't try
to deny warranty claims at all. If anything, we are
covering all sorts of repairs that should really be
the responsibility of the customer.
It would only be right that they shouldn't have to pay for the
mistakes of others. I agree. I still don't see how oil on a MAF
sensor causes a tranny to die though. I'm not trying to insult you or
challenge your competency. I just really am bewildered by that. I
would think the pressure given to the tranny would be controlled by if
slippage is happening, not how much air is being metered on the engine
A trans would be told to shift hard and fast if the MAF sensed full
blast air flow and a wide open TPS.
I therefore speculate that the "logic" here is that if the MAF is not
sensing air movement sufficiently in line with other readings then it
shifts the trans verrrry slowly (a.k.a. slips) whilst it waits for
everything to catch up.
> I still don't see how oil on a MAF
Sarge, don't worry about insulting me or challenging me about the
transmission issue. I'm simply passing on info that's in the bulletin.
You can read it for yourself in the post where I included the body
of the TSB. "GM" is the one saying that an oil contaminated MAF
can cause driveability problems, and transmission failures.
I have no choice but to accept that as the reality, even if it seems
strange. And now after more posting on this, I guess it seems less
strange. It's too bad though that it judges how hard the engine is
working by the MAF input rather than other more direct factors. Or
maybe that is the best judge of it.
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:41:20 GMT, "shiden_Kai"
On an electronically controlled transmission:
The MAF is the sensor that is as important as the TPS (Throttle Position
Sensor0 because it gives the ECM real time load, and manifold vacuum.
So the wire covered in crusted oil, will send a erroneous reading, altering
the pressures needed, causing slippage in a range requiring more pressure, a
locking signal to the torque converter, and none delivered because of the
So, in the end, they paint that statement with a broad brush, and if you put
an oiled filter in there, you caused the problem, you pay the bill!
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:09:49 -0400, "Refinish King"
Yeah it's all coming together now. I had installed a K&N in my car.
I have not yet had to clean and re oil it. Are the levels of oil in
it as put in by the manufacturer high enough to cause these types of
problems on the MAF? Is ANY oil a danger, or is it folks getting
carried away on the re-oiling of them that really is the problem?
How do I tell if I have any contamination already? I haven't noticed
any problems yet. Also, I keep regular records of my fuel consumption
rates, and have not noticed any alarming trend.
Comments welcomed by any and all of course, not just RK.
From the factory the oiled filters SHOULD be ok, BUT any time you add
any liquid into an air stream, some will
come out of the media and enter the air. The problem seems to be when
people who clean and re-oil the filter
don't follow the directions properly OR use different oil.
An air filter will cause a transmission failure? Bull Shit!
Oil covered sensors? When GM stops using a Intake vented PVC system I
might believe that.
Let them attempt to void a warrantee of mine or one of my customers
for such shit. Ill go thru and find the cause of the failure, then get it
re-instated. That's the time a tech tried to blame the use of Nitrous for
repeated starter issues, and they voided a warrantee. The problem was a
wiring issue that the dumb techs couldn't track.
Yes....which would be ok if a person was simply willing
to admit they might not be up to speed on everything these
days. God knows that very few of us are....even when we
are working with the new stuff all the time. There is so much
new info and updates coming down the line it's ridiculous.
I did read it. I also know that oil can be all thru out the intake
track from the PVC system. Most techs if they saw oil there and it
had an after market air filter will blame that. They will not check to
see if it is filter oil or not.
I know it's not 1967. Hell Three Quarters of the vehicles I work on
have Electronic Fuel Injection. Over Half are Front Wheel Drive. That
includes OBDII vehicles. Usually there is not much to write about
servicing them. On the rare occasion I will need further info, like when
I asked about Saturn transmissions. Because I don't deal in many of them,
and my books don't cover most Saturn items. I'm just now getting
enough Saturn service work to warrant the cost of purchasing manuals that
have the info on them.
I understand how automatic transmissions work. While I do not build
them. I know what PCM's do and do not do. I understand exactly how
toque converters work, what the valve body does, what vacuum or electronics
do what, ect. Even in 1967 the basic principals of hydraulics using a
turbine style pump were the same. Since then they have refined them, and
added features to the control systems.
If your TPS is reading WOT at part throttle, you should get a hard
shift. Which is not harmful to the transmission. Crisp, Hard shifts are
better for long term clutch life. If your at WOT and it is not
registering, the engine should not be getting enough fuel to harm the
transmission with a sluggish shift.
I probably see a lot of things you don't. If that's pompous or dumb,
then please don't bother to read my postings.
I have seen GM cars where oil has coated MAF/MAP sensors. I have also
seen it on TPS sensors. On cars that have paper element filters. This oil
is coming from too high a crank case pressure, and causing drivability
concerns. Usually on cars with high miles, and no P-M other then oil and
We both know it's not hard to clean a sensor, or replace it at
customer cost. Instead of voiding a warrantee. That is dumb and pompous.
It's also something that SEMA has faugh against for years. Automakers
have claimed that doing this or that should void a warrantee because it
will or can cause a symptom.
I have said many times before I work on 2 to 4 year old vehicles,
and rarely see brand new vehicles for mechanical service (mostly wrecked
ones at that). So I don't have to keep up to the minute on service
bulletins, or service procedures. Usually by the time they come to me
Mitchell's or Motor's has 96% of the updated info in the books. Mitchell's
publishes TSB books just for people like me.
We work in different worlds. I have tried to point that out to you
before. I guess you don't get it. So Ill offer you something. Take a
vacation, come on down and wrench at my place for a week, at $60 US per
hour. Ill even stay away, either at the parts houses, or doing off site
work. Then at the end of that week, you can tell me exactly what you
It's obvious we wrench in different worlds. I have no problem
with independent shops, or techs that work in them. It's not my
cup of tea, I've grown up in the dealer environment and I'm used
to it. I don't care what you do, the topic was simply about aftermarket
oiled air filters. Now that you have read the TSB, you can do nothing
really, other then agree that in some cases, GM might just void warrantee
if someone doesn't know how to oil their filter. Whatever, let's move on.
You get paid 60 dollars an hour US? Or is this just something special
you are offering me? I find it hard to believe that you would pay
me that kind of money hourly. I already make close to 50 dollars
an hour Canadian, but I have to work my ass off for it. If your shop
isn't on flat rate, it would be a vacation for me. Work a leisurely 8
hours a day, and pocket 60 US an hour....that would be sweet.
If you are saying that I would come down and be unable to duplicate
what you can do in a weeks time....well, duh! You'd have a good
chuckle at my expense, and then when you came up and worked
flat rate in our dealership for a week and got handed a ring job
on a Northstar, I'd have a good chuckle. But nothing of any real
value would be accomplished. It takes time to get good at any
particular type of work.
Ill say this: if they can not follow directions on how to properly oil
an air filter, they need serious help. Even some small engines use oiled
filters (lawn mowers, trimmers, ect).
That is my standard billing rate per hour of labor. Other shops in
this area are going up to $80, so I will be too in a while.
That's $60US per billing hour (book time). I only flat rate some
jobs, or certain customers jobs. If book calls for 4.4 hours, and you
get it done under that, you get your money for 4.4 hours. I would have
to add a $5 per hour mark up on the labor to cover over head. When it's
just me, 100% of the money goes in to my pocket. Then I pay the bills as
needed. My accountant hates me, but he only does my taxes.
I'm not saying you couldn't do it. I'm saying come down, do the
work I do, deal with the people I deal with, ect, and see how things go.
Then you will have a clear picture as to why I am like I am.
I bet you would even get along well with the Buick-GMC-Hummer tech
that does some work out of my shop. He's been a dealer puke for over 15
years. Hell of a great guy, all he know's is cars & driving. He got taken
off the Hummer in because he dared as for a raise. He gets around $27
US per book hour of labor, even though the dealership bills his labor
at $80+ an hour. All the dealers around here do that.
The only dealers I worked for were used car dealerships. Which I know
from knowing dealer guys is a totally different world.
BTW: Dealer Puke is local slang for Dealer Tech. I guess some here take
it as an offense.
No, it's called an electronically controlled transmission which
uses the Mass Airflow Sensor signal (engine load) as part of the
Gee, where else should GM vent the PCV from considering that it
-has- to be a closed system?
The air filter is upstream from the MAF sensor which is upstream
from the PCV vent. MAF sensor contamination is always found on
the upstream side of the sensor element. Get a clue.
Ohh the thingy that replace that dern throttle value cable set up?
Yes I know what they are.
Try this, a tube ran from the Positive Crankcase Ventilation Valve to
an Expansion take with a oil separators unit. Then a tube for gasses
to the catalectic converter. Which will burn off everything. This would
remove one element of soot in the intake tract. It would also lead to
cleaner combustion chambers, pistons & valves.
You can have a closed crankcase ventilation system with out a PVC
value. Nascar uses them with Mopar style breathers. Where the gasses are
run in to the intake underneath the carburetor. Other variations on that
are an open system with 2 breather elements in the center of the intake,
where the cross tube meets.
I could build a unit, and test it out. Yet if caught, since I do not
have a prototype car from a manufacture, I would be tampering with
emissions systems. Thus I could get a real nice fine.
No I don't walk on water. The tread of my boots tends to sipe it
away so I can walk on wet ground.
Evidently not considering your "Bull Shit" comment above.
Meeting OBD2 regulations would be extremely difficult with this
'pipe the crankcase vapors into the cat-con' scheme of yours.
Catalytic convertors will not burn off everything, especially oil
vapors and adding extra unburned oil vapors to one will certainly
shorten it's life.
I didn't ask about the valve. I asked how you'd do the intake
A NASCAR engine would have no reason -or- desire to do it this
This is the way it's done, except that it doesn't meet the
provisions of being a closed system so it wouldn't meet emissions
standards that have been in effect since 1968.
To a certain point. Pleating simply increases the area of the filter,
while adding more pleats might seem like a good way to go, what actually
happens is that the box gets filled up and adding more pleats forces the
pleats to close up and actually cuts down on the area available. Plus
reducing the area that the dirt can sit on. So, you will find that a
filter like that will plug up faster, and probably not pass enough
more air to begin with to make a difference.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
Once again this depends on the area of the airbox. But don't you know that
stacking air filters is a common trick in drag racing? Of course it's
do that when the filters are round and cover a carburetor.
I also said there are other ways than just increasing the pleats.
For another example of filter media, you can buy an electrostatic filter for
home furnace that uses a set of charged wires to apply a charge to the dirt
as it passes through the filter, then attract the dirt to a plate where it
These filter out far smaller particles than paper can, and have much lower
resistance, with the downside that you have to wash them frequently, and of
course you also need a power source.
I never said the K&N did any of this.
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