'93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?

hi, haven't ben here in a while but now i'm back with perplexingproblem.

i was driving along highway 70 mph and the engines just ** cuts out ** no warning, no sputter, no bucking, no shimmer, no funny noises {clunks, thuds nothing}

engine turns over fine, power going to everything fuses look ok, half-tank of gas

is this that RELAY problem can't remember what it was called ?

need help and ideas, thanks, rob

"robb" wrote in news:13je0kh3pch9fb8 @corp.supernews.com:

Does it eventually restart?

Igniter or coil. Most likely igniter.

cuts

noises

ok,

?

Hi Tegger, Thanks for the help and reply.

no, it did not and does not restart.

Is there a way to test the ignitor ? i have basic electronic diagnostic tools eg. Multi-Meter ?

thanks again for your help, rob

"robb" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

--------------------------------

Look inside the valve cover (oil filler cap) while cranking. If nothing is moving, it's the Timing Belt. Removing the distributor cap will confirm the same, while cranking for a second.

'Curly'

You got it Tegger, Ignitor had failed *off*. i connected it up with bulb trick and it would not switch , then i compared to a new one which switches just fine.

One more question : when i lifted the distributor cap i found the

*spring* that sits between the coil and the distributor cap ... well the top part was bent way over and appears that it was not making the connection it should with the cap. *BUT* rather it was just a spark gap. There is a nice burned spot on the small metal contact post that is up in the distributor cap

Ques: Could that condition where the contatct spring between the *Coil* and the *Cap* is not connected cause stress on the ignitor or thew coil and maybe cause pre-mature failure ?

my reasoning being that a spark gap was causing some parts of the ignition system to work harder maybe due to less performance from the double sparking that had to occur ?

thanks so much for the help , rob

quite possibly, although the igniter should be able to cope with full open circuit discharge. it's academic at this stage - you need a new distributor cap and rotor, and you already have a new igniter. now you'll be set for the next several years.

"robb" wrote in news:13jfmorq64mhe69 @corp.supernews.com:

Oooh, bad. Aftermarket cap?

Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter controls its own dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up. I guess if the coil ends up oversaturated, the excessive backwash HT voltage thus generated may serve to damage the igniter.

That's very possible. The entire system exists for the sole purpose of making a spark jump at the plugs. If anything at all interferes with that goal, the rest of the system will be subject to abnormal load, possibly to the point of inducing failure.

By the way, I know OEM parts are expensive, but I strongly advise you to replace your igntion components with OEM only. Anything else is asking for trouble.

Tegger wrote in news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130:

From the pictures of an igniter you posted awhile back,the igniter has a control IC that measures the emitter current while the coil is charging up.I believe there's a resistor printed on the ceramic substrate that is the current sensing resistor.

There should be a catch or snubber diode to prevent back EMF from damaging the igniter,it may be integral with the switching transistor;they do the same for TV flyback HV supplies.(they also use current sensing to control coil current,lots of switching power supplies also use it.)

Tegger wrote in news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130:

An exception would be the most expensive part, the igniter. You should be able to retrieve a decent used OEM igniter from a local wreckers for about five or ten bucks.

Jim Yanik wrote in news:Xns99E6730552E23jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84:

"Emitter current"... What's the difference between that and "back EMF"?

I remember this being mentioned way back while we were discussing the igniter pages before I made those pages up. Thanks for the reminder.

So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random failure.

I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original igniter. Borrowed time?

Tegger wrote in news:Xns99E69B75C2AEFtegger@207.14.116.130:

"back EMF" is the current generated when the coil is -disconnected- from the charging current,or as commonly called,the "flyback current". The IC measures the CHARGING current,thru a resistor from emitter to ground(while the transistor is ON). The "back EMF" is the high voltage discharge generated for the spark plugs when the coil's magnetic field collapses when the charge current is switched off.Part of it's path is thru the snub diode/condenser,around the switching transistor,to ground.

What is called "dwell" is the time the coil is being charged,when the points or transistor is "ON" and 12V is charging the coil.The longer the dwell,the greater the magnetic field built up,and the higher the back EMF generated when the charge current is disconnected(points open or transistor switches OFF).

I see no reason for an igniter to fail simply from age or mileage. I suspect poor heatsinking(that white compound between the ceramic substrate and the aluminum of the distributor) or coil/wire arcing transients.Grime buildup can also interfere with heat transfer or allow for leakage currents to flow across the circuit improperly.Moisture would not be good,either.

Jim Yanik wrote in news:Xns99E6BFE30BAC5jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86:

OK....

Then it seems like I need to change my reference to "back EMF" to read "emitter current" on the relevant igniter page.

You have not yet defined "emitter current". Can you?

"Jim Yanik" wrote Tegger wrote

Old wires or old spark plugs, or non-OEM of same, seem to me to candidates for contributing to failure of the igniter too. I base this on my experience with my 91 Civic's igniter (in the years when I was likely using non-OEM wires and/or plugs, or just not caring carefully for the OEM ones) vs. Tegger's set routine of replacing rotor, cap, and wires every five years.

Tegger wrote in news:Xns99E6C851C561Btegger@207.14.116.130:

The "emitter" is one element of the switching transistor. (on a schematic representation,the transistor element with an arrow designates the emitter.direction of the arrow designates whether the transistor is a NPN or PNP type transistor)

You have the base-emitter(B-E) current[from the IC] that controls the much larger collector-emitter(C-E) current[coil charging current]. The control IC measures the total emitter current,decides when to switch the transistor off when it reaches specified levels,determined by the value of the emitter resistor.

"Elle" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

That's what I meant by "coil/wire arcing transients";plug wires breaking down or a coil insulation breakdown. I don't think old spark plugs would cause an igniter to fail,unless they had a cracked insulator or carbon tracks on the insulator from outside contamination like dirt/grease.

controls its own

igniter has

failure.

igniter.

Tegger, i took my igniter apart to see what was inside. (it is labeled OKI.)

i popped the plastic panel off the back there was sticky (but not strong) transparent gel around the electronics. I could see smallish silver wires welded to each outer ternminal and then connected to contact points/pads on the circuit board.. while removing the gel *carefully* with Q-tip, one of the silver wires easily came away from it's pad/tower. then one of the pads/towers (that the wires connected to) just lifted off the circuit board ( no force ) this was not good as i could not budge any of the remaining contact pads by jamming with a Q-tip. when i inspected the pad and circuit board with a magnifyng glass there appeaared to be corrosion or oxidation where the loose pads were mounted

so i tested switching electronics by using sharp probes and making the test contacts directly onto circuit board pads or pad mount points... to my surprise the ignitor ****works and switches ****

So in my case it seems to be a mechanical failure with the circuit connections... inside the ignitor

rob

"robb" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

Tegger has/had a picture of an igniter on his website,and that one had a ceramic substrate for a circuit board.It has the resistors printed directly on the ceramic,"thick-film" resistors.It makes a very durable,reliable component.

Was yours an epoxy-glass (or worse,phenolic) PCB with soldered-on (discrete)resistors? If so,I wonder if it were a non-OEM igniter? Maybe you could post a pix or 2 somewhere?

Jim Yanik wrote in news:Xns99E752D8A9127jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.85:

Still do, as a link to Grahame Wood's page in the UK:

Send 'em to me. I'll put them up.