'93 civic, engine cuts out while driving on highway ?

Jim Yanik wrote in news:Xns99E6EF43834AFjyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84:

Found a schematic online. This is a little over my head, but I'm trying to grasp it anyway.

As I understand it, the IC drops the base current at the correct time, causing flow to stop between emitter and collector. This is the action of switching the transistor off, forcing the field collapse that creates the HT current in the coil.

According to some pages I'm finding, the current-limiting resistor changes its value as *voltage* goes up, which is how the IC knows what's happening.

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But I'm not following how *voltage* goes up here. I'm not understanding the connection between *current* and *voltage*. I thought the two were independent of each other.

Reply to
Tegger
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"robb" wrote in news:13jidmm8gfqcd93 @corp.supernews.com:

Very interesting. I'd love to see pictures, if you can get them. Especially of the wire having come loose from its pad.

Grahame Wood has similar pics on his Web site, here:

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Reply to
Tegger

"Elle" wrote in news:13ji3l8lb9m4479 @corp.supernews.com:

And they said I was nuts... :)

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Tegger

"Elle" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

A very important additional point to be made is that coil/wire arcing and leakage to ground will result in a steady flow of tiny misfires, much too small to be felt by you, and possibly even the OBD-II system.

These misfires are by far and away the #1 cause of catalytic converter failure. The constant trickle of unburnt fuel "sinters" the surface of the cat, reducing its surface area, and thus reducing its effectiveness.

The OBD-II system makes a very big deal of monitoring closely for misfires for this very reason.

Replacement of the entire HT side with new OEM every four or five years (plugs more often than that) will do much to help your horrendously expensive OEM cat last the lifetime of the vehicle.

Reply to
Tegger

interesting! can't see how it would be possible to prevent this, or fix it, but interesting nevertheless!

Reply to
jim beam

labeled

them. Especially

sure i can do that but i do not have a convenient web site to post pics, i will need to put them on one of the file share sites or post to some binary usenet group e.g. alt.binaries.???

all the terminal wires have broken off while finishing the cleaning and performing the test with the probes. those silver connector wires were quite fragile... one bend and a return bend and they popped right off the pads that the wires connected to on the actuall circuit board might be more interesting as they should be welded to the circuit board and not pop off at all.

then the one pad that did dis-connect had corrosion on the weld where it was suppose to be conected to circuit board. looked like lead that is oxidized, dark gray and when you scratch it you get shiny silver

i'll find a place to post the pics and post links here later, rob

Reply to
robb

"Tegger" wrote E wrote

Who said this? :-) I just checked my personal "Honda Maintenance" spreadsheet with the OEM maintenance schedule and the ones others recommend, and what you do is not far from what is OEM recommended: 60k/4 years for wires, rotor and cap. I am going with yours for the immediate future, though. Or I will go to four years, since as of a few months ago, I am now living in an even hotter climate out West, and I think the heat takes more of a toll on the electronics and electrical (read: battery especially!) parts.

Jim, understood about the transients. Bad wording on my part. I was trying to give the practical, "for-the-amateur," candidate solution to the transients.

Reply to
Elle

"robb" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

Email them to me. I'll make them part of the igniter pages.

Reply to
Tegger

Tegger wrote in news:Xns99E757F9DB31Etegger@207.14.116.130:

Right!

No,for the igniter,the emitter resistor is a fixed value,and the -voltage developed across it- increases as current thru it increases(the coil current).That voltage is fed back to an IC input and when it reaches a set value,the IC shuts off the transistor.That's how the IC measures the coil current.

here's the relationship; E=IxR I=E/R

E=voltage I= current R= resistance

See,when you hook 12V across a coil,the current thru the coil is a linear ramp up until the coil saturates. So,the IC measures that ramping current with the emitter resistor,and compares the voltage developed across the resistor to an internal voltage,when they equal,a switch turns off the external switcher transistor,removing the 12V from the coil. Then the magnetic field collapses and the HV spark is generated in the coil windings.

Reply to
Jim Yanik

jim beam wrote in news:EZednYV2r6brMqTanZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@speakeasy.net:

Without seeing a pic,I'd say it was a cheaply made igniter. It sounds like the wire broke from vibration or thermal stress.The pad lifting seems like it's a cheapo circuit board,not a ceramic substrate. I'd like to see a pic.

On

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black goo may be a grease to keep out water.If it were accumulated engine/road crud,it would have a gritty feel to it. Robb's tranlucent goo may be a different grease,perhaps a silicone grease.

Reply to
Jim Yanik

Thanks for all help Tegger and jim beam,

Problem was definately the ignitor.

Went with your advices and purchsased Honda parts, the ignitor/ICM was ($126).

installed ICM and car fired right up.

the bent dist. cap contact spring must have come from some lazy azz who did not want to pull spark plug wires to put distributor cap back on (dealer replaced the distributor about 3 years ago) but that seems to just mean the shell/housing as they transfered all the old internal parts {ICM,coil, rotor, dist cap} to the new distributor housing

I went ahead and checked the Mains Relay (for solder problems)... i must have the new design as there was lots of solder on the connections with very large traces between the connections, looked good to me.

thanks again for the help. robb

Reply to
robb

Jim Yanik wrote in news:Xns99E79F1CF996Djyanikkuanet@64.209.0.87:

Aha, I see. So if the current goes up, that changes the product of IxR.

Now it makes more sense. I didn't know the current changed during coil dwell time.

So then...With a Kettering breaker-points system, the points gap provided control over dwell. With Honda's electronic system, an IC is monitoring voltage across a resistor to determine dwell.

Do you know what's used as a "snubber" for the ~200V back voltage from the primary? Or is one even needed? In the old days you had a condenser for that task.

Reply to
Tegger

Jim Yanik wrote in news:Xns99E7A0C309BDEjyanikkuanet@64.209.0.87:

I'd agree with that.

See a whole page, with more details, here:

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Reply to
Tegger

Tegger wrote in news:Xns99F05D371D79Ategger@207.14.116.130:

the switching transistor may have an internal bypass diode. Many TV sets have transistors that have the diode built in.

Reply to
Jim Yanik

Tegger wrote in news:Xns99F0671E17E3Dtegger@207.14.116.130:

well,it IS a ceramic substrate. It looks like there was a bond failure on that one pad. that should not be a very common problem. My own experience is that you cannot resolder them once they break,but others have said if you use "special solder",you can.I can't say how reliable that would be,but I'd not risk it.

It also looks like the switcher transistor is a bare chip die bonded to the aluminum backing,interesting. I'd say that this igniter is a lower quality one than the one depicted on Graham's Rover page. That one uses eyelets to connect to the ceramic substrate's pads,much sturdier mechanically.

Nice page,BTW,Tegger.

Reply to
Jim Yanik

Jim Yanik wrote in news:Xns99F08BD3013D3jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86:

Thanks for the information. I'm going to update the igniter pages one more time to reflect what you've helped me with.

Reply to
Tegger

Jim Yanik wrote in news:Xns99F08F0D6B669jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86:

Thanks.

I seem to remember that Honda once had a TSB or HSN article on igniter failure where the OKI igniter was bad and the NEC one was good. I can't find it just now, though...

Reply to
Tegger

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