what an odd statement! they're only 27cm shorter than your 4-door sedan, and they both have an identical wheelbase. the only reason they could feel worse is if something is wrong.
the automatics have power steering.
that may be a valid point. i forget that i replaced the bushings and the shocks on both my current cars as soon as i got them, so they both drive like new.
how are they different to your sedan? and i can tell you for fact, there is more interior room in my 89 than there in in the subsequent generations. get a tape measure out.
I've found Carfax to be quite useful on several occasions in the past. The $35 30-day membership is cheap compared to the cost of a car, and the Carfax data isn't always 100% accurate or complete, but as long as you recognize that, it works pretty well for a quick-and-dirty assessment of past problems.
One of those Carfax dealer ads is how I recently acquired my '00 Civic Si. I'd been looking for a clean, unmolested '99-'00 Si for a couple of months with limited results - most of the ones I ran across via Craigslist or another local forum were either ragged out from rough treatment, had high mileage with no way to verify the service history (or lack thereof), or had modifications I wasn't thrilled about. I'm not entirely averse to modded cars when they're well thought out and done to a professional standard, but those kinds of cars tend to be the exception rather than the rule.
Anyway, I was checking the VIN on Carfax for an Si I was considering going to check out, when an ad popped up stating something like "you might also be interested in this vehicle" for an '00 Civic Si with only
53K miles. It was at a local dealer, so I got on the phone and called them immediately. The salesdroid sounded confused initially when I asked about the car, then after looking it up, hesitantly offered that they still had the car. I went out to look at it, and it turned out that they'd just gotten it as a trade-in a couple of days previously. It was still in the service bay awaiting cleanup and servicing, was filthy inside and out, and they wouldn't let me drive it until they'd checked it out. But it appeared to be solid, no evidence of ever having been wrecked (confirmed by Carfax, for what that's worth), and the interior was in really good shape for an 8-year-old car. It cleaned up quite nicely, and I wound up buying it before it ever hit the lot. The only flaw I've been able to find is that 5th gear grinds slightly. There's a TSB for this which recommends replacing the 5th-reverse gear cluster (and probably the synchros), but given how much that's likely to cost, I'll probably just live with it unless it gets worse.
Anyway, your supposition about Carfax automatically finding cars like this is probably correct - it certainly hadn't been advertised anywhere by the dealer, and the various salespeople I talked to were all mystified as to how I'd found out about it. This particular dealer claimed that their policy was to never buy cars at auction, but they didn't say whether that policy also extended to selling cars at auction.
I am finding this problem with Craig's List, too: Too many darn kids with their crappy mods selling cars owned by a zillion people already.
At this point, clean and relatively unmolested is worth another grand or two to me. I can deal with high mileage (say 70k - 170k miles).
I am trying to pounce on these, too. Gotta pay dealer used prices, but as I say above I may be willing to at this point. Every time I call the dealer rep says it's been sold or they have to check on it. I will stick with it, though. The dealer cars seem to always check out with pretty clean titles on Carfax.
I am wondering if there is a quicker way of getting this info out of Carfax, rather than putting in a VIN and seeing the ads pop up.
Are you serious? This is what you call high-mileage for a 89-97 civic? Even taking the youngest from your model year list it is 11-12 years of service... Average mileage is 12000 miles per year, so you should on average expect 1997 to have 140k or more... Not mentioning 1989 :-)
There is an option to be notify with e-mail message when the car shows up listed in the range of model years / trims you selected... My subscription expired already I cannot check it for you.
? What is inconsistent with what I wrote? Of course 70k is rare, but I saw a 1995 with 55k miles on ebay this morning (it checks out with Carfax). I see a 95 with 177k tomorrow. It too checks out with Carfax.
I tried the used car search engine carfax.com and it seems to pull up strictly dealers' offerings. But the darn dealers do not say a word about when the car came in, when it sold, etc.
I am not doubting cars like these are there on the market... You might want to wonder if 1995 with 55k miles is real or not.
Inconsistent is that you call 70k a "high-mileage" in the range of model years you are considering for purchase. Maybe I am little strange, but for me 95 model year,
13-14 years old car with 177k miles (12k/year) would be low or average mileage car. 140k or anything elss than that would be extremely low mileage for an old car like this.
I am not talking about search engine. I am talking about automated system emailing you a list of new cars EVERY day to your inbox. Call their support phone line and ask for it if you cannot find it on their website.
one more thought - the later models you've been considering have what i consider to be a serious deficiency compared to your current vintage - lack of front sway bar. the 96-2000 for instance only has sway bars on the ex and si models, not the lower models.
i discovered this while having to make an extreme evasive [defensive] maneuver to avoid a freeway accident in my [then] new 2000. damned thing nearly capsized. i was used to driving an 89 that has sway bars as standard, and that pretty much goes wherever you point it, no excessive body roll. the 2000, not only did you have to be careful on the transition between hard left/hard right, there was no "safety factor" in near-accident situations like i describe. i ended up retrofitting the 2000 and that dealt with the problem, but i would not feel comfortable with one of those vehicles in stock configuration, especially as the body is so much heavier and thus more susceptible.
Talking about active safety - how about ABS? Which model years/trims had it already installed, which not?
Talking more about safety systems... how about air bags? Would you prefer driving with 20 years old airbag or 8 years old one?
How would seat belts work after 20 years of service? Are you going to replace them with new ones?
Also, in case of unfortunate accident - how would you think 20 years old body would perform compared to the 8 years old with no rust? If you even neglect rust problem (let's say you live below snow band) then how the next model year compares to the older in crash tests? Do you think 2000 model year will have upgraded crash test performance and cabin cage compared to, let's say 1989 model year?
do you know much about abs? did you know that it doesn't necessarily stop you any quicker, and can in fact /increase/ braking distances? if you have an abs system on your car, open the owners manual and read what it says about that.
abs is /fantastic/ for people like my grandmother who will do something like skid on the freeway, all 4 wheels locked, and sit there pressing the pedal as hard as she can while she has absolutely no control of the vehicle whatsoever. when i'm old enough to drive like her, maybe i'll consider abs. in the mean time, as long as i know about cadence braking and friction coefficients, i'm quite happy with standard brakes thanks.
i prefer to have /no/ airbag! if true driver safety were the concern of gub'mint, roll cages, helmets and 5-point harnesses would be mandatory, not airbags. just like in race cars.
depends whether they work or not! as a matter of fact, i /have/ replaced a seat belt with a retractor problem, but that's just me. the inertial lock still worked ok.
mine's california and it has no rust. and 8 years in the rust belt is no guarantee of integrity if you want to be really pedantic.
if it were rusty enough to be structural, i either wouldn't drive it or i would have it repaired. but it depends of the nature of the beast. cosmetic rust, say at the bottom of a door or the bottom of a wheel well, means nothing to crash safety. structural rust is the only kind that truly matters and, as you may imagine, it takes a /lot/ more to rust out thick structural components than thin cosmetic ones.
i recall seeing some crash testing of rusty vehicles some years ago, and the researchers were "surprised" to find that the rusted out boxes of crap they'd found were no worse in crashes than the unrusted ones. i guess that, like you, they hadn't bothered to think about the facts.
Don't be such arrogant! I know exactly how ABS works and what are its effects on driving/breaking.
In my opinion the car with ABS in general is safer than the one without one. Buying older cars you loose this feature and some others, too. It is buyer choice, of course, but I considered it worth mentioning together with your coment about missing sway bars in newer model.
Don't forget you are not talking about the car for yourself but for Elle. She might be somebody's grandmother :-) Or - just a driver little more educated in benefits of modern car safety systems than you...
This just tells me how uneducated/ignorant driver you are.
Also, again I have to remind you that the choice is not yours but hers. It is her car we are talking about. It is her decision if she wants car with air bags or a death trap without one :-)
I am not talking about cosmetic rust but undercariage rust, ball joints, etc. Once again, I have to remind you that your advices are addressed to Elle. Do you know where is she located? I do not recall her mentioning this.
Not to contradict you, but to get out my puny view: I have been restricting my search to older cars partly (very small part) because I do not want ABS. ABS is harder to maintain; has more that can go wrong; and I do not see significant advantage from a safety standpoint.
I have always had a car without ABS.
I would prefer airbags but I am not requiring them.
I think JBeam is recalling, correctly, that I am in the southwest. No rust in general, though a few of the cars I have seen are from up north and show rust.
I finally read the fine print on carfax.com's connection to dealers: Every time a dealer looks up a vehicle history on carfax, the lookup goes into their system as a car that /might/ be traded in or just got sold. I think it would be luck to run across a Honda through this approach. I really do not trust the salespeople there to call me as soon as another 92-95 Civic comes in. They deal in the here and now. A phone call does not seem to be worth it to them.
Archival point: The 1990 Civic hatchback compared to a 91 Civic LX Sedan (my car) is lighter by around 150 lbs, and is
10-inches shorter. Ten inches is not small potatoes to me. Can't find the height from the ground for the hatchback, but it has seemed lower on the three or so hatches I have looked at. Interior dimensions on the hatchback are mostly a bit smaller than the sedan. I think the lack of power steering on the hatch means one feels the road more. It is not as responsive in feel.
I have also driven a few used sedans besides my own and consistently felt much better in them compared to the hatches.
you know how it works??? i'd love to read your explanation!
btw, if you learned how to spell "b-r-a-k-i-n-g", you might be more convincing.
what is your opinion based on exactly? it's not facts about braking distances because abs is not necessarily better in that regard. you /do/ know about abs systems, right?
buddy, helmets beat air bags every single time.
keep drinking the kool-aid.
i'm not talking cosmetic either - that's why i take the trouble to specify "s-t-r-u-c-t-u-r-a-l" in the part you so carefully snipped but didn't annotate.
then you've not been here very long. or you don't know how to use google. or you're stupid and lazy.
those 88-91 hatches must have had something wrong if they actually rode lower. i know my hatch gets some heavy moving duties simply because i can fit a lot of stuff in it, but the honda ride height spec for both is the same at 150mm. wheel base for both is 2500mm, wheel track for both is 1456mm.
all the other differences are simply cosmetic, i.e. length of the sedan is 4232mm vs 3964mm for the hatch. width is 1674mm vs 1665 for the hatch, and roof height is 1360mm vs 1333mm for the hatch. dx manual sedan weighs 2147lbs vs 2088lbs for the hatch.
i think if you're feeling a difference it's simply the fact that you've done the rear bushings on your car, and the others you've tried haven't been so lucky. it does make a big change to the way these cars handle.
No curb weights are given in Honda shop manuals, just gross weights.
Assuming the diagrams are correctly scaled (not relative to each other, just within each diagram), all of the 11.7" difference in overall length is in the rear overhang. The fronts of both body styles appear to be identical.
What I find interesting here is that the Integra of those same years (which is Civic-based) has a 2" longer wheelbase in addition to 3.6" increased length, sedan versus hatchback.
I agree this is quite possible. (I know you think it's fact; I am just expressing my own opinion.) For the record, on my
91 Civic, every single front lower arm bushing and all rear arm bushings have been changed out. The front has almost new OEM coils, too.
I am considering a 95 Civic DX with only 120k miles (two owners, with much documentation of dealer maintenance) on it that has a really good feel. It has no power steering but the bushings may be better than the old hatches I have tried. So my PS theory could be off. Also, I won't rule out the ball joints (and more suspension) being older and less well maintained on the hatchbacks I tried. IOW, overall worn suspension, for one as you and I seem to agree, may be what I am feeling.
Maybe the old hatches are also molested more than the sedans. The younger crowd seems to prefer the hatches. The sedans look like an old lady's car. The hatches, more like a kid's. Not to deride those driving hatches and paying a fraction of what the average driver pays for gas, though. :-)
Edmunds.com has curb weights. Not saying they are right. Just saying that's where I got my figures from. IIRC, at least for my 91 Civic, the Edmunds curb weight and that on my car's label match.
MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.