Re: 08 civic warm up issues

stat, and they haven't removed thethermostatonce (which is the

atand she was fine.

Forgot to mention that I drive an 07 Civic. This is its first cold winter, so I'm only noticing the problem now.

Is your car under warranty? Specifically the emissions warranty.

If your engine is not warming up, it is polluting the air and Honda Canada is breaking the Canadian Federal emissions laws. Honda Canada is required to meet Canadian Federal specs for emissions. They are not allowed to sell automobiles in Canada that exceed the specified emissions. An engine that does not warm up to operating temperature, within a certain time frame, will not meet the Fed specs. Raise a stink with the dealer, Honda Canada, and Transport Canada. You paid lots of money to have Honda build a car that is supposed to meet the Canadian emissions specs.

Look at you warranty booklet, read it carefully. Contact Transport Canada. Do you live in a province that requires emission tests for licence renewal (i.e. Ontario, British Columbia)? You may want to tell them Honda has possibly allowed polluting automobiles to operate on their roads.

snipped-for-privacy@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in news:gmd9ap$ovn$ snipped-for-privacy@theodyn.ncf.ca:

It will also turn on the Check Engine light if emissions exceed federal limits by a significant amount.

You're forgetting that the primary components of the emissions system are the oxygen sensors and the cat. If either is not working properly, the Check Engine light will illuminate. If both ARE working properly, then emissions are within specified limits regardless of coolant temperature.

What totally baffles me is that nobody seems to want to try the very simple expedient of checking the coolant outlet at the head with an infrared thermometer. All dealers have got to have one of those. *I* have one. It was all of $75. You should see about 205F at the "sweet spot" when fully warm. If it's lower than that with no accompanying Check Engine light, then the thermostat is bad.

I'm convinced Honda has simply had a run of bum thermostats, hardly an issue worth snitching to the cops for. Bet there's a TSB out on this by spring.

Same BS I get from my dealer, they claim the heater core, which takes water before the thermostat, is actually capable of cooling the engine in this weather. Doesn't make any sense, sounds like a routing or valving issue to me. No way should coolant flow be that high through a heater core.

I've used some 1/2" pipe insulation in the gaps of the grill. See pics at URL below, mine is the same. Definitely helps it get up to temperature on the hwy. From what I understand, this problem is even worse on hybrid civics.

Ahh... the possible loophole for the manufacturers. My understanding (and I'm not saying it is correct) is that there is a time limit for engine warm up, because when the cars are tested by the 'Feds' (not the provinces or possibly the states), they 'bag' everything that exits the exhaust. If the engine does not warm up during the test 'program' (driving test routine), the bag, when analysed for contents, will show high readings.

And the test for stats is the same as it has always been... take the stat out... hang it in a pot of water... hang in a good thermometer... turn the heat on... make note of the temps and action of the stat... consult the factory workshop manuals for the specific details of how the action and temps are supposed to relate.

At 30 to 50 below in the Yukon, spring is a LONG time away! At 30 to 50 below ya want some fire under your ass. If a threat of snitching gets that fire sooner, well then, what the hell! :-) :-)

snipped-for-privacy@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in news:gmfr8l$fr8$ snipped-for-privacy@theodyn.ncf.ca:

Oxygen sensors/AF sensors are active after about 30 seconds from a cold start. Their internal heaters are the reason why. The 2008 cat is functional after about the same length of time. Its cheek-to-jowl proximity to the exhaust ports is why.

It is true that insufficiently warmed-up engines of /any/ year will exhibit high HC readings (but stunningly low NO numbers!) compared to a fully warmed-up one, but you MUST realize how stupidly low ALL the readings are these days. CO, for one, is now non-existent to Ontario's DriveClean, since its equipment "only" goes to two decimal places. You'll see "0.00%" in that slot. An uncontrolled engine puts out roughly 4%-10% CO.

A cold engine of 2008 vintage puts out less HC/CO/NO than a fully-warm engine did in 1991. After the first half-minute, anyway.

I've been told that, in terms of measured emissions, auto exhaust is CLEANER than the ambient air in large cities, and has been so since 1986.

The US federal EPA says that ambient air is now 57% cleaner in ABSOLUTE terms than it was in 1970, in spite of a 157% increase in vehicular traffic from then to now.

If you want to get all huffy and go squealing to the feds that the Big Bad Automaker is Destroying the Environment, you should have a few facts at hand before you make a total fool of yourself.

Tegger wrote: (...)

(...)

A bit of perspective: I was in Advanced Auto mechanics in high school, and was told the same thing by the shop teacher - that cars were essentially cleaning urban air. The year?

loewent wrote in news:f1d574cc-f317-4c99-9229- snipped-for-privacy@z27g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

Hi Robert I have been following this thread and have something for you to consider.

Honda makes very efficient engines, they are also as a rule small. The combination means that there is a LIMITED amount of waste heat availible.

Consider that especially if the heater is at the max setting, there will be a maximum amount of heat available for a given engine load (dependent mainly on vehicle speed).

Given the fixed amount of waste heat available and the cooling effect of the heater core, there will be a minimum outside air temperature that the waste heat availible from the engine can support.

Colder than that temperature outside, the engine temperature will drop, warmer than that temperature, the engine temperature will increase until the thermostat opens. This is the "balance point" of your system.

If you read most good shop manuals they have a performance chart for air conditioners that is analogous to this situation. At a certain outside temperature, the capacity of the air conditioner becomes inadequate to cool the car to a comfortable temperature.

I have only run into this situation once, living in north Texas. A college roommate had a 74 Mercury capri with a 2.0 L engine and had the same problem you had.(almost no heater below 20 degrees F). This engine had the added problem of a water heated intake manifold. After a thorough inspection I found that the engine air intake preheat tube (a baffle on the exhaust manifold feeds hot air through a tube to the air cleaner) had been disconnected. Simply reconnecting this tube lowered the coolant heat loss to the intake manifold enough to tip the balance and make the heater work correctly.

The only easy test I can come up with to see if your engine is overcooling because of excess heat loss to the heater core is this: Clamp off either one of the radiator hoses and drive the car. A defective thermostat will not allow the engine to overcool because the radiator is disabled. If it still overcools, then the only place that the heat is going is out of the heater core and there is not a bad thermostat. No disassembly required and you can buy clamps for this at a lot of tool stores, they are used to do repairs without draining coolant. A lot of the responders to your posts think that the heater core cannot overcool the engine. This may be correct with large heavy vehicles with large engines, but a small engine CAN be overcooled with a low enough outside air temperature. I realise you may think your problem is solved by the new thermostat, but consider that you have not driven again at -36 degrees C. The balance point for your heater and driving conditions may not have been met and may not until next year when colder temperatures return.

The bad news is that there is no way to modify your engine to solve the heater problem without a lot of engineering that would have to be done by Honda, as an optional "arctic kit" or some such. That means a lot of r+d for 1/10 of 1% of the cars they make. I doubt that it will happen. If I was you I would try to fabricate a cover for your oil pan made of cardboard or some such material to insulate and prevent heat loss from cold air blowing across the oil pan and cooling the oil, but this would be a pain in the butt to install and take off as outside temperatures increase to the point where the oil would overheat.

Good luck Scott

I have to agree. Modern engines are more efficient than we old-timers appreciate. A friend's daughter is going to college in town so he asked me to look at her 2001 Ford Focus. It was overheating within minutes of getting on the freeway but was no problem in town. I found the radiator 99% plugged - blowing through it was like blowing through a couple of soda straws. The radiator was not doing anything - it didn't even get more than a little warm when the engine overheated - but the temperature was still okay (not regulating, but you can't tell that from the Ford temp guage which, like their oil guages, is an idiot light in guage form).

Adding baffles to the grill to keep cold air from bathing the engine may be the best answer, and the pipe insulation is a good choice.

Mike