Show cars having specific features?

Any number of sites let you list selection criterion like year, cost, body style and major features (transmission type, etc.), but I was wondering if anyone knew of a web site that would let you get REALLY specific about features before presenting you with a list of cars for consideration.

Like: I want a car with a sunroof, 6M, seats four, 4-wheel ABS disc, alloys, and gets 30mpg highway.

Anyone remember seeing web site that might do this?

Thanks.

+-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+
Reply to
Charles Lasitter
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Not specifically, here's where a certain element of "background awareness" enters the fray. Here's where you do your legwork, probably using a filtering system on fuel consumption first and then working your way up the list of priorities.

But you know, things like wheels are very easily added after you buy the machine. Alloys don't interest me much from an aesthetics perspective, lightening the unsprung weight is useful, so I wasn't at all bothered by this Accord running on steels.

As for wanting X forward gears, here a more important point is the nature of the gearing and power delivery. Well spaced ratios designed with the power delivery of the engine in mind is much, much more effective than six ratios in a 'box taken from a parts bin.

Reply to
DervMan

Prior to further research, my working assumption would be that whoever put a six-speed into a car knew what they were doing. Beyond that, of course, you are correct.

I still think it would be great to see "all six speeds", for example, or only those cars where side air bags could at least be added as part of some option group.

Right now I don't know any way of getting to some of information other than by wading thru page after page of specs on different cars / options!

+-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+
Reply to
Charles Lasitter

I remember seeing places that listed much of what you said in the comparison data, but you had to pick a vehicle to do it. of course, its often worth just a playaround, and to know what basic vehicle type you're after. 6-speeds aren't that common, though, well, I haven't seen many. V70's have 6 speed in their R, but thats not so good milage wise.

I'm not sure you'll really find a car with all that, since you want 'sports' features (the 4Wheel disc, 6M) and then you want what is an economy feature (the 30mpg) - I doubt you'll get both. If you do, let me know.

Reply to
flobert

I was absolutely floored by what I turned up on searching with "6M" as a keyword on Sunday. It turns out that a number of Volkwagen models come jam-packed with features and performance at very attractive prices.

VW has several models with 6M standard, and combined with a Turbo i4 that makes nearly the same torque as the J30 V6 but at 1800 RPM, I should think it would take off like a kick in the pants!

+-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+
Reply to
Charles Lasitter

It's a lazy engine and VAG build quality is nothing like it used to be. So, buy at your own peril.

Reply to
DervMan

This may well all be true, but they're offering a 4/50k warranty vs Honda's 3/36. And here's what really gets me:

All for 2006, VW offers:

Jetta GLI 4Dr/Sdn 2.0L Turbo 6M GTI 2dr Htcbk 2.0L Turbo 6M Passat VE 4Dr/Sdn 2.0L Turbo 6M Jetta 2.0T 4Dr/Sdn 2.0L Turbo 6M

And they all have these safety features standard:

Emergency Brake Assist Traction Control Stability Control Electronic Brakeforce Distribution DRL ABS w/4-wheel disk Alloys on all but the Passat

And you can't get this 4cyl/6M combination from Honda, even normally aspirated, unless you go with a +$10k Acura TSX. Getting the 6M and safety features in an Accord means you have to get a V6 EX and shell out enough to have me looking at entirely different cars.

The only 6M you can get from Toyota is a Corolla TSX, and safety / performance items like stability / traction control aren't even available as options.

I just think an unfortunate number of auto makers has missed out on this combination of performance, safety and fun-to-drive (6M) characteristics, at the very least in an attractive price range.

+-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+
Reply to
Charles Lasitter

number of gears doesn't mean 'fun to drive'. one of the most fun cars i ever drove, was a 70's mini cooper. only 4 gears. my cousin, and her husband had a pair of golfs, on the other hand, a gti for her, and a vr6 for him, both rather boring and lazy cars. Father had a golf too, an 89, was forever breaking down, even with only 30k miles on it. Exhausts dropping off, went through 5 alternators (including one that half-melted, and would only charge at idle-speeds)

Its endemic of VAG these days to cut corners. Anyone who's been following VW for the last 15 years will know how the build quality has dropped. They're resting on their laurels as the only major non-luxury european manufacture in north america, well, they're resting everywhere, but its not hurting them in the US.

Passat's heavy for the 2lT, and the golf's getting too heavy for it to. its something like twice as heavy as the old golfs (what you'd know as the rabbit)

Remember as well, that the warentee is good, but only if you only plan on keeping the car for its duration. VW parts can be as pricey as BMW or volvo ones, and from experiance, needs them more often.

Reply to
flobert

There are very good reasons for this. One is that VAG's quality control is lacking. Honda are one of the few manufacturers making money on selling cars. The VAG are not...

And most of these are frightfully dull to drive.

How exactly is having alloy wheels a safety feature? They can be added afterwards if wanted.

Which compared to the VAGs is an inspired drive.

The latest crop of VWs are better than before, but you'd be delusional if you bought a Golf or Passat thinking that it's a European tight handler. The 2.0 litre mark four Golf GTI (_not_ the current one) is a raggy bunch of bones on a twisty road such that my mildly fettled Ka would show it up when called for. It may be great having nearly twice the power of the Ka but with what appeared to be twice the weight and half the linear grip...

Yes, but you'd be getting a wholly better short and long term ownership proposition.

Ya like, dude, drop this perception that the more forward gears the better.

Nooo! Having lots of forward ratios can mean a few things such as:

  • The power band is so narrow that it needs lots of ratios.
  • The fuel consumption is artificially flattered by an overly long bunch of top ratios, so you need third for any gradient up or down.
  • They fit the X speed manual 'box to the top of the range model and got a bargain deal on the rest
  • They reckon people want more forward gears.

It does not mean that the car is more fun. As I alluded to elsewhere, the quality and thought of the transmission is relevant. How many gears, that's mostly academic. It's not unheard of for a given range of cars to get a certain transmission that works well with, say, the turbodiesel or the GTI. This 'box and final drive is used on all cars, thus, the cooking model petrol engines end up having way too long gearing such that one may only use sixth on the flat.

You also have to consider how good the 'box is to use.

All up, my advice is to get over this "6M" hangup and go some leg work. Picking the right machine based on technical specifications is all well and good but you're setting yourself up for some major disappointment.

Reply to
DervMan

I drove the 6M Passat today, and I was very favorably impressed.

I like the transmission. Very tight, short throws compared to the Honda

5M.

And there were a number of features Edmunds forgot to mention, like limited slip differential, which I also like.

It also has a trip computer that I REALLY like, giving you your fuel economy RIGHT NOW, a compass, and external temperature display.

The feature list on my Honda LX is pitiful by comparison.

I have no doubt as the the reliability of my Honda. I'm just saying that we deserve more of the standard features that everyone else gets to take for granted.

+-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+
Reply to
Charles Lasitter

These are not safety features. They're distractions. You may crash whilst noticing you're returning 34.6 to the gallon.

Reliability comes as standard.

I agree to a point, but that point, well it depends. We bought an older '99 machine because it had the three specification things I absolutely required (cruise control, ABS, air conditioning) and the one thing it couldn't do without (reliability). Everything else is nice to have.

The most accurate fuel computer still shows "--.-" when you're broken down because of a missing coil back. Or the reverse light switch.

Thousands buy VWs year after year. Thousands don't need to replace their Ford / Honda / Nissan / Toyota year after year...

Reply to
DervMan

Wait. I think Hondas are great cars, but how does it follow that their reliability == the manufacturer gives you a shorter warranty?

And a 12 year warranty against rust thru versus five?

= 9.1 Edmunds Consumer Ratings (MSRP $23,790)

= 9.4 Edmunds Consumer Rating (MSRP $21,990)

= 9.4 Edmunds Consumer Rating (MSRP $22,950)

= 9.1 Edmunds Consumer Rating (MSRP $23,590)

and a 2006 Accord V6/6M EX: = 9.4 Edmunds Consumer Rating (MSRP $27,300)

And from Consumer Reports:

"The Volkswagen Passat was our top-rated family sedan from

1998 to 2004. Based on the previous-generation Audi A4 and A6, it provided an inviting blend of comfort, roominess, interior craftsmanship, and handling. The Passat was a family sedan that was fun to drive. But inconsistent reliability was its Achilles' heel.

So there are reliability issues, but CR is not alone is liking the Passat.

Compared to what? Not my Accord LX.

And they all have these safety features standard:

Familiar with "moment of inertia" as it applies to centrifugal force? By replacing the steel wheels and the tires on my LX, I cut 5-6 lbs off my Accord's unsprung weight on each corner. The result, among other things, is a shorter stopping distance, because it's easier to stop a wheel from lower mass from turning.

For +$10k, I should hope so.

I was comparing the VW models to a Camry and the Accord LX that I now drive. Anything further is a straw man. But since you brought it up:

Again from Consumer Reports:

"The GTI is comfortable, well finished, powerful, and fun to drive. Based on the Jetta and redesigned Golf, this hatchback can be an alternative to a sports sedan, with capable handling; a relatively comfortable ride; a well-crafted interior; and a surprisingly roomy back seat. A four-door version arrives in June 2006.

"THE DRIVING EXPERIENCE

"Handling is agile, and body lean is controlled. The steering is quick, well-weighted, and has good feedback. Emergency handling was stable and forgiving, posting an impressive speed through our avoidance maneuver.

"Around the track it was well controlled and entertaining with well calibrated stability control. The ride is firm but steady and compliant. The GTI is fairly quiet inside. The

200-hp, turbocharged four-cylinder engine is smooth and powerful and got 25 mpg in mixed driving, but it required premium fuel.

"The standard six-speed manual transmission has appropriate ratios and we found it easy to shift. Volkswagen's quick shifting DSG automatic transmission is optional. Braking distances were short, but the pedal sometimes felt touchy."

I don't get "it really sucked" from reading this.

And: It goes 0-60 in six seconds.

Can you quantify this for me?

This wasn't my idea. I happened to notice that they showed up in lots of "driver oriented" cars.

Indicated by a turbo engine making peak torque at 1800 RPM?

All up, my advice is to get over this "6M" hangup and go some leg work. Picking the right machine based on technical specifications is all well and good but you're setting yourself up for some major disappointment

I've been doing nothing but "leg work". If I've overlooking other obvious choices that represent a value for the money, then enlighten me. If major driving magazines think this engine / tranny combo sucks, I'm all ears.

+-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+
Reply to
Charles Lasitter

but then youre stuck with a VW. high maintenance costs, parts costs, electrical probs, oil burning probs. VWoA considers burning a quart of oil every 1000 miles normal.

plus a lot of the dealership techs are audi and porsche mechanics, and they get paid as such.

Reply to
SoCalMike

they ought to offer a 6/60k.

and how much does each model run? i seem to recall the 2dr GTI being damn close to $30k.

and thats for a 2dr hatchback, albeit a nice one.

VW isnt giving their cars away.

Reply to
SoCalMike

i guess hyundai must be the best, since they offer a 10yr/100k mile warranty!

Reply to
SoCalMike

If they had the same warentee, what would you go for?

You have to love marketing, they can take a major drawback with their vehicle, and turn it into what many people consider a major plus point.

Its not that 'the longer warentee is best', its simply 'our car is unreliable, so we'll extend the warentees so that people will ignore eliability, because the manufacturer will pay for some of it

THAT is why there are ones of differing length. An unreliable car is still an unreliable car, no matter who pays for the repairs, its still broken down in the first placeI don't know about you, but I'd rather have a car that breaks down 3x less, than one where they'll pay the repairs 3x longer. I mentioned previously about my fathers golf, that melted an alternator - when we found out, it was 2am, we were in the middle of nowhere, it was the end of november, and the battery was flat. at that point, I couldn't care less WHO paid for the repairs, I was more concerned with not freezing, whilst I tried to attract attention, so I couldget help to get me and my passengers back in time to get to our jobs.

think about things properly, and not how marketing want you to think.

Reply to
flobert

snip

You are 100% correct. Don't look at it like buying the one with the longest warranty is the best idea. Look at it as if vehicles weren't sold with a warranty. Then which one would you buy. my 2 cents

Reply to
dc

Because most buyers do not consider the warranty an issue with Honda (or Toyota).

VWs sure look good on paper. That's why kids buy them.

The very LAST place you want to go for a sense of how much fun a car is to drive is Consumer Reports.

Of course the most important safety feature in any car has to do with the driver.

Brake assist, traction control, stability control: unless these features can be turned off, they do not lend themselves to spirited driving. How often have you felt deprived of these features in your Accord since you put those Pirelli tires on?

DRLs: turn on your headlights.

ABS w/4-wheel disk: I like this setup too, so I spent the extra $$ for an EX (vs. your less expensive LX).

Alloys: also standard on the EX.

A six speed does not equate with fun to drive. Everything else being equal, I'd take a 5-speed with LSD over a 6-speed with open differential, any day.

Ever notice how Consumer Reports never publishes lap times?

So last year's BMWs weren't driver oriented because they lack this year's 6-speed?

Oh, a truck engine. Sorry, cheap shot. Audi/VW philosophy was summed up by an Audi executive years ago who said something like "people buy horsepower but they drive torque." I don't disagree but it kinda negates the requirement for a 6-speed other than for fuel economy.

All the safety features you seek will probably make it into the next Accord as standard equipment. Yeah, VW has them now but VW has to add stuff to make their unreliable, expensive-to-fix cars more attractive.

Re. VW's engine/tranny, see the AutoWeek GTI vs Si article;

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No, the VW power train does not suck but it is very different than the Honda. [Note: the new GTI does not include a LSD.]

Ever consider you might be happier buying a car designed to entertain rather than buying a grocery getter that has been modified to provide more fun than its boring brother-in-arms?

Yeah, I know. They don't sell those fun cars for $20K. Well, guess what? Time to forget the past and pay up! Trade in that Accord for a

2007 G35 next spring. OK, just kidding. I'd never suggest anything but a Honda here in ramh.
Reply to
dimndsonmywndshld

Because they don't need to provide a longer warranty?

Because there's a higher chance of them rusting... do you think?

[snip cost stuff because VAGs are unreliable and expensive>

Perhaps in the North American market their handling is consider more in tune to the market. The Passat is far more A4 than A6 though.

But in the UK they are snatchy understeery things with the finness of a hippo in a bathing costume. Indeed, VAG have managed to give the A4 and Passat a firm ride and lacklustre handling. Amazing.

Ford gave the Ka a supple ride and great handling.

Yes. That's a major down side as I'll go on to discuss.

Compared to the following:

Ford Mondeo Vauxhall Vectra Peugeot 406 Citroen Xantia / C5 Renault Laguna Toyota Avensis Honda Accord BMW 3-series Volvo S40

In fact, almost everything else in the same class.

Something you'd use every day?

Something you'd use every day?

There is no such thing as centrifugal force. It's centripetal. And, yes, very familiar heh.

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That's probably my biggest Ka Diary entry about unsprung mass.

You have to get the right wheels, though. The majority of aftermarket rims are materially heavier than their steel counterparts.

Whilst I agree with your sentiments, the braking difference is minimal when compared to picking the right quality of tyres. Nowhere do you mention good quality tyres let alone those useful in both wet and dry conditions, given the loading.

Well now hold on. If you are looking at the whole market you need to consider the whole market. If you're not looking at the whole market you may miss something.

Consumer reports. Hardly unbiased, though. Some people would feel pretty stupid claiming that their expensive car is not good in some respects, so they inflate the report. Other people like one part of a car so much that it shines through all other aspects.

There's no substitute for you trying it. What I find insulting handling may be fine for somebody else...

Erk! European Golfs are sure as hell not well finished. They look pretty and solid and even the plastic is that wretched "we can't stop it rattling so we'll make it soft" stuff, but it's nowhere near as solid as I'd like. The mark one and mark two Golfs had it. The mark three, four and five don't. VW have cheapened the interior.

It can be. Not as spacious really. If you need room in the back then it'll be too small. If you don't need rear seat space it's too big.

Key here is "relatively" of course. On some surfaces it'll feel fine. On others, it feels typically German hot hatch, i.e. knobbly and rough.

It's also wrong wheel drive for that much power. Torque steer?

*cough* Uh-huh. Six seconds. There are *remarkably* few front wheel drive machines that can hit 62 in under 6.5 seconds. Those that get close to 6.0 seconds have over 240 bhp. It's more like 7.0 seconds.

Having trialled a whole bunch of powerful front wheel drive stuff, once the figures start getting below 8 seconds, you need a good, near perfect or perfect launch so as to get close to the quoted time. Front wheel drive machines wheelspin relatively easily. Once they spin, they keep spinning. Traction control systems without a launch control facility typically cannot cope with this much power and it's worse with a turbocharged engine. You either get rampant wheelspin and don't move off or you get the power reduced, lose boost pressure and the engine gets bogged down...

It's an unhappy compromise. It won't take six seconds either.

Yes. After the first few months you'll notice the off creak, squeak and rattle from the interior. You may return it to the dealer. They may be able to find it. Or they may not. Either way it's a trip to the dealer that you so don't need.

Then there's component longevity. Oh and breakdowns. Thing with something like a Golf is that many people love them despite their faults and how they have a nasty habit of breaking down. One single breakdown is enough to cause major aggravation.

Lets suppose the coil pack stops working, something that happened to a whole bunch of VAGs in Europe. The car is off the road because of a relatively cheap component. In some cases, for two months. Anyway, it stops working (typically late at night when it's raining, perhaps the coil packs were linked into the automatic wipers?). You call breakdown. You are recovered. Car goes to dealership. Courtesy vehicle arrives. You collect your car as and when it's done. Unless the courtesy car also breaks down on you too.

My folks' Passat was off the road for a weeks because of a broken brake pedal switch, which stuck on. Off the week for a week because of a cheap microswitch.

Cheap components break. That's the case on all machines, including Honda and Toyota, but has happened a lot more frequently to VAGs than they'd have you believe.

That's the reason to have the longer warranty. You need it.

Right. Got'ya.

You're taking one example. Don't get me wrong, having bags of torque at low engine speeds is handy, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the power band is broad. We need torque and revs. The VAG 2.0T engine has much more go at

4,000 rpm despite having less torque... indeed whilst it doesn't feel gutless at 1,800 rpm, compared to 4,000 rpm, it certainly does.

Actually we need power, but that's something else.

*cough*

*cough*

*cough hack splutter*

Here's where my knowledge of the North American market is far too limiting. European wise, I could certainly help...

The Golf GTI is a good enough car but it's not a good hot hatch. If you like it, it'll depend on your perspective. Personally, it's not for me. It's powerful and quick but it's too powerful for front wheel drive and the chassis finesse just isn't as good as it should. The Ford Focus shows us how...

Reply to
DervMan

Pfft, Masistro turbo, Went like crap, looked like it too 9so lessworries about it being pinched) 200hp in a FWD car when 140 was fashionable, and parts were cheap and easy to fix.

Reply to
flobert

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