dude, you're completely missing that this is EXACTLY how ignition keys
have worked FOREVER.
Step 1: accessory power, including radio but not windows. On German
cars, the headlights do not turn on.
Step 2: full power on. Everything is powered up and is pulling from
the battery. On German cars, the headlights can turn on.
Step 3: engage engine starter. This part of the ignition switch is
spring loaded, so all you have to do to release the engine starter is
release the key. The key will settle back down to the "full power on"
state, which is where the car and drive system are normally running.
Windows have never, ever worked when the ignition is on accessory power
So, on to power buttons and how to give the user the same experience:
Push 1: accessory power, including radio but not windows.
Push 2: full power on. Everything is powered up and is pulling from
Push 3: engage engine starter.
The Prius technically goes through accessory power, to all power, to
off--but this behavior happens only when the driver's foot is off the
brake. The only time the drive system comes to "Ready" is when the
driver's foot is on the brake. And even then, it's only one push of the
button. To take a Prius from full-off to Ready: make sure key is
engaged (either in the slot or, in the case of the keyless ignition,
inside the car somewhere), put foot on brake, push Start button one
You're saying that Honda does it differently? Are you saying that Honda
forces you to push the Start button three times?
On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:21:19 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
Well now, I don't recall exactly, and I may have rewired at least one
car so the windows DID work on accessory power, maybe my old Alfa.
I also vaguely recall cars where the accessory position of the key was
in the opposite direction to the start trigger. Old GM?
When I turn off the car and find I've left a window open I have to hit
the button twice to get power to the windows, then a third time to
turn it off - unless I accidentally left my foot on the brake and then
the engine starts. Sequences like that.
Except there's a little deal where the windows still work on accessory
for five minutes or so, then they are cut out. So someone at Honda at
least sees the issue, but that's not much movement towards a fix.
A simple red button for start, and blue button for accessory power
that includes windows, would serve my purposes. Why would I want to
turn on all systems without hitting the start trigger, maintenance?
So hide the trick for that setting somewhere else, maybe hold the blue
button for three seconds.
Most modern cars, Honda's included, even those still key operated (like
my C300) the windows still operate after the ignition has been powered
off until a door is opened. many the radio also stays on till a door
There are already too many buttons in modern cars and you are
suggesting adding an additional one? To serve a very small use-case?
It's not that hard. If you already powered down AND opened your door
and then discover you left a window open then just hit the start button
once without your foot on the brake and close the window then tap again
Or, like many cars (can't remember is Honda does or not), press and
hold the lock button on your keyfob for a few seconds and that ill roll
up the windows.
Actually I think the car does that but I've never tried it. I seldom
take the fob out of my pocket for car operations.
I don't like adding another button, that is well taken, but I also
don't like three-states for these reasons, so it's a tossup. A
three-position knob, like the key mechanism but without the key, would
be fine. I've always thought "push-button start" was some kind of
throwback to the 1950s or 1930s or forward to The Jetsons or
Voice operation might be better, if one could depend on it. For that
matter the car could greet me by name and ask permission to start.
Why not, in a few years I'll send it a text message and it will run
down to the store by itself to pick up some groceries. I guess button
engineering is just old school.
On Fri, 20 Feb 2015 05:42:14 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
The state transitions available were clearly marked on the keyhole,
and there as no confusion possible as to going directly to the one I
wanted, I didn't have to count to two, I didn't have to know if I
needed to count at all, in order to get the car into the state I
Look at it from the operator's point of view, cuz it's the operator
who is going to be operating the thing.
Nah, why should you do so, when obviously Honda doesn't.
Don't count, look at the dash. If shit is off, then it is off. Press
until on. Press again until off.
You're making more of this than it is.
My 17yr old daughter, the operator of our 2013 Crosstour, has zero
confusion. When it was my wife's car and we had to use those functions
(we go to the drive in theatre often in the summer) she had no issue
That's what I do, but what next, start whacking it with a rock until
So once a month I end up accidentally starting the car when I don't
mean to, but yeah, I'm making an issue out of it.
But more often than that I understand the cycles fully, but I don't
like having to push a button three times and temporarily turn on all
systems, just to crack open a window, and then again to close it.
It's just dumb design, and the dumb design becomes an irritation
beyond the actual operations.
The car "knows" I'm sitting there with the fob, so why don't the
windows and radio just work, no button at all?
But I thought I could just press stuff until on? Now I have to watch
my feet, too?
Never occurred to me that people do that. What do they do with the fob
when they drive to the store, let me guess, give it to the valet, who
may leave it in the car? LOL Don't know if the car "knows" if the
fob is *in* the car versus *near* the car. So give me a setting in
case that's an issue. Is there a valet fob?
Yes, the car knows inside vs. near. My 2013, if you leave the FOB in
the car and close the door the horn will honk a couple times to let you
know it was left behind.
There is no valet FOB that I am aware of. When we go to the store we
are existing the vehicle and therefore put the windows up (like people
have done for year before we had keyfree systems) before powering
anything down. We then exit the vehicle and lock it (again, like people
have done for years befroe keyfree systms).
The windows working at all while the system is completely off is a
recently added "convenience" feature to many cars keyfree and
otherwise. My C300 which has a non-pushbutton ignition also will let
one operate the windows for a time after the vehicle is powered down
and before a door is opened. But you can still do things the same way
they were done for years prior, don't kill the engine\power till all i
ready to go.
On Mon, 23 Feb 2015 07:59:26 -0500, "Howard Lester"
But this is when already stopped, in regards to opening a window,
something previously not much requiring foot control.
Thanks all for replicating what was no doubt the same discussion that
took place within Honda, before their last human factors guy committed
Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.