Oil Consumption 2000 JGC V-8

I didn't say I thought it was normal.... the manufacturers do..... and Bill you know this because this is the standard they have used since, at least, the 60s..

Doug, I don't question your knowledge of electronics diagnosis because I accept your expertise in that specific field but had you read my entire post rather than just the first line you would have noticed I mentioned the two most possible mechanical problems and a low tech approach to each.

Had the OP a clogged CCV hose I assume he might have mentioned that his airbox was full oil.

As far as a cloud of smoke I drove a Dodge that used quart every 1500 miles for almost 100k and it never left a cloud behind or fouled the plugs (although I used Bosch Platinums the whole time) I just added a quart at

1500 miles and changed it at 3000.

I drove that Dodge Aries (K Car) 168,000 miles and sold it in 1996 for $500 to a former (minimum wage)coworker who, as of last summer, still drove it.

I used to have an engine in my Suburban that burned a quart every three hundred miles. Aside from a few puffs at startup, there was little visible smoke. I did have to install four one inch aftermarket breathers, to get all the blowby out of the engine compartment. Motor oil is, after all, a flammable substance, and it can burn just as well on the outside of your engine as in the cylinders.

Wrt Billy's comment, "That being said I would be surprised at that amount of wear in an engine where synthetic had been used since new, or seals damaged under those conditions." I see you have bought into the snake oil claims. Synthetic, if you believe all the propaganda, is more resistant to breakdown and less likely to form gel and sludge when maintenance intervals are abused. Those are its only benefits, really. It does not lubricate any better than the correct API/SAE grade of dino oil when new, and does not allow more or less wear than dino oil, as long as proper change intervals are maintained.

Earle

Bill,

You're begging to start a flame war, aren't you?

You'd really like it if someone said, "Sure Bill, all those cars burned oil, but you just won't admit it." Well, I won't be the one. ;^)

Earle

Earle,

I liked your wording, it is so precise and misleading someone might mistake you for a shyster or Demoncratic Politician.

I will agree that synthetics have limited superiority to dino spit when the dino oil is new, the weather always remains moderate, and the oil and filter are changed promptly at 3k or less mile intervals.

Or any Republican office holder, "We're not safe yet, but we're safer than we were when we started [bombing the shit out of stone age Arabs]". "There's an old Texas saying, 'Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice...uh...duh...won't get fooled again." Or dad, "Read my lips, no new taxes".

Crank bearings and other internal engine parts ride on a film of liquid oil, by hydrostatic pressure. Wear comes from failure of the oil to be liquid, unsufficient flow and contaminants in the liquid. Synthetic sort of addresses the first problem, but not the second two.

Earle

sludge, same thing.

I just remember my first car a '48 Hudson, a twenty dollar car that I carried a gallon of Raylube with it:

The two methods are different ways to arrive at the same place.

Ya know there are a few times when having a specialized Chemistry Degree comes in handy, those 7 years weren't totally wasted....

The PAO method takes chemicals initially small molecules and chemically joins them to make molecules of the desired size and shape. It may be of interest that the esters used to build PAO oils are initially derived from petroleum. If the next group is referred to as 'dino spit' perhaps this group may be referred to as 'dino phlegm'

The dino method that you mention starts with Base II oil (conventional automobile is the inferior BaseII) and chemically or enzymatically cleves them at specific points in their structure to be the desired size and shape.

What you end up with in either scenario is a collection of molecules that are the size and shape that the engineers specified.

You might ask why is there two methods..... I am not a chemist for the petroleum industry so I haven't any inside scoop other than what little my brother, who works for Exxon, tells me.

Generally there are 3 reasons for multiple pathways.

1. Primary research went down multiple paths
2. Protected by patent.
3. Cost

Is one technology better than the other? Hmmmm good question, hard to answer. There are some minor differences that fall within the design specs.

The groupIII derived oils theoretically could have low levels of non design elements (i.e. contaminants), this would be trumpeted by the PAO supporters who claim that their favorite is free of these 'dino droppings'

The PAO derived also have minuscule contaminants of their own that are within their design specs. As you see..... nothing is 100% pure although some advertising departments spend millions of dollars per year to make you believe otherwise.

Benefits of synthetic oil? Synthetic oil lasts two to five times longer than conventional oil; thus, waste oil generation can be reduced two to five times if synthetic oil is used. Synthetic oils have high resistance to changes in viscosity due to temperature. As a result, they provide a heavier, more stable protective oil film for engine bearings and piston rings than is provided by similar SAE-grade mineral oils. Synthetic oil permits better cold weather performance and longer endurance. Manufacturers claim that synthetic oil yields better fuel economy, reductions in friction and wear, decreased oil consumption, improved performance, and extended drain intervals.

Disadvantages of synthetic oil? Synthetic oil costs more than conventional oil. However, the higher cost is typically offset by reduced waste generation. Since synthetic oil has improved fluidity, oil loss will occur more quickly through leaks because the thinner fluid will flow through a bad seal or worn ring. Some synthetic compounds are not compatible with conventional oils. (no longer the case with motor oil) The lower friction resulting from the use of a synthetic lubricant makes them unsuitable for break-in.

There is, of course, an economic impact that I will be happy to further discuss as well as study I participated in where the biological effect of a chemical derived from (basically) the two methods mentioned above were studied.

I noticed an serious error... the dino derived synthetic oil comes from the superior Group III base not the inferior Group II that is used for almost all automotive oil.

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Uh, so do all dino oils, have "minuscule contaminants of their own that are within their design specs".

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Are you suggesting that this information could be relevant to an automotive application? Because the last time Mike posted the charter, it sure looked like an automotive group charter. Well, I am getting roughly 5,000 miles between changes, mostly highway use in my Wrangler. This says that I could go 10,000 to 25,000 if I switched to synthetic. I am looking at the part that says, "waste oil generation can be reduced two to five times", and the only way you can do that, is to extend the change interval.

Most of the people I know, who have been using synthetic, use a 3,000 mile change interval. In that case, the fact that, "synthetic oil lasts two to five times longer than conventional oil", if it does, is of no use to them.

Cheers,

Earle

I've owned two Corvairs [65 140 hp Corsa, 66 180 hp Corsa] and one Type IV VW engine in a 914. None of them burned as much as a quart between

3k-4k mile oil changes. Even an 85 RX7 only burned about a half quart--and that was an engine where *not* burning oil was a bad thing given that it had a precision oil injector.

L.W.(Bill) Hughes III proclaimed:

Earle, It is interesting to note that you took a reply to Bill concerning the actual source of the lubricants and dissected out a few sentences and intentionally used them out of context.

Are you sure you never worked for ABC/CBS/NBC/PBS/ or the Turner-Commie-We just make up the news Network?

Earle, the paragraph previous to this one mentions contaminants in the Group III base oil. I will assume you read it and chose to act if it were never mentioned.... a trick worthy of an experienced politician

This addresses the problem of 'waste' motor oil disposal... but of course you knew that also. If the 'waste' oil was coming from a Jeep it would be covered. In any event I think any discussion of motor oil or gear lubricants would fit within the spirit of the charter.

This is the interval I have generally used for more than 30 years except when I was running full synthetic in turbocharged AUDIs., the interval there was 5000 miles.

I'm surprised you failed to jump in my GroupII error that was corrected in the next post 26 minutes later, perhaps that is because you don't have a degree in chemistry and haven't a clue as to what I am talking about. (but then I don't claim to know what makes computers work)

Don't you get air cooled Porsches in California ?

Dave Milne, Scotland '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ