LS400 r12 / r134a

Anyone know what's involved in upgrading an R12 LS400 to R134a? Or is there a better way (substitute gas, etc)

Thanks

Reply to
ib
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You could hear a pin drop when the almighty "ib" addressed his adoring fans with these immortal words:

have a local A/C repair shop check their MACS (I believe it's called). It lists every vehicle that has R12 refrigerant and what it takes to convert to R134A.

Some only require seal changes and a complete flush of the cooling system. Other cars require replacement of the evaporator tank, compressor, etc. Consequently, it can be as cheap as a $100 or as expensive as a thousand dollars (or more). But at a minimum, the seals must be replaced because the molecules for R134A are half the size of R12 and even the smallest (existing) leak will lead R134A twice as fast.

Whatever you do, you MUST *completely* flush out the R12 refrigerant (not just drain), as the two gasses are not compatible and will permanently destroy your a/c if they're mixed together AT ALL.

Which begs the question, why do you want to convert? R12, although expensive, is much more efficient at cooling than R134A. If you have an efficient system with no leaks, I'd stick with the R12.

Reply to
kegler

R12 is illegal, isn't it, and discontinued many years ago?

Reply to
ib

You could hear a pin drop when the almighty "ib" addressed his adoring fans with these immortal words:

No it's still available for cars that use it. However, it's very expensive. It's legal to fill cars requiring R12 but it's not legal to retrofit a modern a/c system, (if it's even possible), for R12.

The R12 that's available today is actually reclaimed "dirty" R12 that's been cleaned and recycled. The actual (legal) production of R12 ceased in Jan 1996, hence the reason that R12 is about 3 or 4 times more expensive per pound than modern refrigerants.

For example a 30lb cylinder of R134A is approximately $200, where a 30lb cylinder of R12 (CFC12) is almost $500. That's wholesale to a licensed a/c technician. Expect about a 40-50% markup from there for consumers. To completely flush/refill an R12 system can easily run $500 and up.

Reply to
kegler

True, sort of... it is just no longer manufactured (legally), and can't be used in new applications... at least in the US. Shops are required to collect (and save) it during conversions, but it CAN be reused. They must NOT refill it into a system with a leak. The leak must FIRST be identified and fixed. And if you are at a shop with a unit that is not getting cold, it is ASSUMED there MUST be a leak. They insert a UV dye into the existing system and look for leaks. Many times it is just due to seepage at the component joints over time. It is NOT cheap however; I believe about $50/lb a couple of years ago.. only to get even more expensive. If an obvious leak can't be identified, it is pretty much a toss up on the cost of a conversion or refill (boost). As stated before, a conversion requires no major part replacements other than some seals. I had it done a few years ago for < $200, and it is still working just fine.

Reply to
Jerohm

You could hear a pin drop when the almighty "Jerohm" addressed his adoring fans with these immortal words:

I agree to everything you said *up to* the point of the last two sentences. It depends on the make/model of car if it requires a simple conversion or a complete overhaul. Take the car to a

*reputable* a/c professional to determine if your car can be converted with just seals or if it requires a major component change. The critical part is flushing the old R12 *completely* out of the system before putting in R134A. The oils between the two are incompatible and in two or three years your compressor will go out *big time*.

I came across these series of articles that outline in greater detail about the different types of refrigerants and their impact. One thing to note is that R12 is MUCH colder than R134A and if you can keep the R12, definitely do so. (Remember when all cars had R12 and you could actually see frost on the vents?..ah the good ole days) :-)

Anyway, if you want to read more, about two or three articles down on this page is a section titled:

Air conditioner upgrades: Myth and reality (by Dan Stern)

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Although it's about MoPar (Chrysler), the subject material is universal to R12/R134A air conditioning.

cheers

Reply to
kegler

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