Pug 306 idling problems

Cookacat ( snipped-for-privacy@despammed.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

On something as old as your 306, I'd be very surprised if the engine management mapping was upgradable. It seems to be coming into frequent use as a good ol' catch all synonym for "Sorry, mate, haven't a clue"...

The key question is - How come the car's been idling fine for most of the 8 years it's been in use?

It's simple - You have a basic mechanical problem somewhere. Fiddling with the ECU will only mask it. It may be as simple as a cracked air hose introducing false air - you say that you've checked for air leaks - how?

I'm surprised that changing the lambda's made a difference on cold start, because AIUI the lambda reading doesn't get brought into play until the engine's warmed up, because the mixture needs to be richer to allow the engine to run right when cold, so the lambda reading would always scream "Rich!" while the engine's cold.

try disconnecting the battery which will totally clear the ECU.

if it reverts back to being a problem get the ECU checked out

see my previous post reply ref the Mondeo.

dj

Thanks for the reply, but I think I have to update a few issues you have raised. I bought the car in Nov 2003, before that it was a company car, lots of miles, but with a FSH. I replaced the lambda sensor in Sept 2004 as it was faulty, and the resulting code left in the ECU made cold starting very difficult indeed. After changing the lambda sensor things were 100% until recently. The problems have surfaced in the past two weeks. The lambda is fine, it's been checked out.

A software upgrade of my car is possible. Peugeot near where I live have confirmed this. I have checked air hoses only by, removing most of the ones I could and checking thoroughly. I admit I don't know how else to check them. Also a local garage I have good faith in has checked the air hoses, although the mechanic there said he wasn't 100% sure exactly what else the problem could be.

As I understand more than the normal amount of Peugeot cars have an idling problem. Even the new ones coming off the production line now. There was a special on Watchdog in Dec 2004 about how brand new 205's, 307's were stalling at junctions, cutting out on motorways. Mine has done this also. Very very dangerous. Peugeot's response was they didn't know what the problem was, but they'd look into individual cases. It seems this problem with Peugeot cars has been around for ages. Just check out how many stalling/idling problems there are on some decent car forums websites. For a huge company as Peugeot to still not know what the issue is very bad, but visiting a Peugeot dealer only backs up how little they care or know about their own vehicles. Only interested in flogging as many as they can, and charging the earth when saps take them back to a dealer when the car needs a service or repairs.

Anyway, rant over! Any further insight you can offer would be appreciated.

Cookacat ( snipped-for-privacy@despammed.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

So changing the lambda's got nothing to do with your idling problems.

So the software in the ECU has nothing to do with the idling problems, even if it is upgradable.

Really? I'm sceptical because I've got a Cit XM with a more advanced engine management system than yours (if yours really is 8v), and the only change possible to the mapping on that is to change the base advance to suit different fuel quality. I've never heard of anything like this on Xsaras or Xantias which use the exact same engine as you have.

Besides, are you sure it's 8v? '97 was the very very end of production for that lump - it was *very* old-school by then.

Ah, there we go, then... It was on Watchdog, it must be true.

Which haven't been built for 15 years. I'll assume you mean 206s - for which the same comments as 307s apply.

Which have a completely different and FAR more complex engine management system and electrical system on a different basic engine design.

Dealers don't design, engineer or make the cars. They're independent companies, often part of very large national dealer chains that deal with many different marques. They all employ YTS chimps to fix 'em.

And this is different to other marque dealers how?

You want to know your best bet? Find a decent Peugeot/Citroen specialist, and take it to them. There's plenty about. Where are you? I'm sure we can point you to one.

Yes it eradicated the original issue, it MAY have some bearing on my problem now.

Check here :

I have an 8V 2litre 306 XSi, old skool or not.

Well when over 500 people complain about it to this program (however pretentious it is), it proves there's a problem, don't it?

So I got a couple of numbers wrong, poindexter.

So there's still a problem, even with new peugeots. God almighty, this is what I'm trying to say.

This I agree with. Bunch of muppets in dealerships.

Erm, did I say it was?

I appreciate (I think) your advice, but I do not appreciate your sarcastic remarks.

Goodbye.

Cookacat ( snipped-for-privacy@despammed.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Another over-simplification. PSA started using multiplexing around then. It's the multiplexing ECUs that are upgradable. The Berlingo/Partner was the first multiplexed new model from PSA, together with the facelifted Saxo and Xsara. PSA usually try out new technologies in Citroen first, because they can get away with all the problems. AFAIK, the first multiplexed Peugeot other than the Partner was the 206. I don't believe the 306 was ever MUXed. It wouldn't make any sense.

Fair enough. '97 was the last year for that engine and the old Motronic

8P ECU it used. I don't know that ECU - shared with the later 405s, which gives a clue as to the level of technology in it - but the more recent and higher-tech Motronic MP3.2 that I do know a little about isn't remappable or upgradable, so...

As usual with these things, it's oversimplified scaremongering - If you get to the true facts, then, yes, there are a LOT of probs with the PSA multiplexing and the current engine management systems. Idling and cutting is the least of it. They're as different to yours as yours is to a late 80s car. Actually, they're a lot more different.

And what I'm trying to tell you is - Your end-of-model 8 year old 306 shares nothing with the current range except a big chrome pussy cat on each end. The engine is different. The engine management uses completely different technology. The electronics are from a completely different era. The bits that are causing the problems on them - the bits that are being dealer upgraded - aren't even fitted to yours.

But not enough to actually think about it or do anything other than argue with it. Whatever. I may be wrong. But I doubt it. I still can't see how a software issue can cause an 8 year old car to *suddenly* start to fail to idle correctly when it's been working fine up until now.

You might also like to try the forums at

Firstly the O2 sensor does not have a bearing on idle performance on a cold engine, so that is not causing your cold stalling problems.

What likely is is a vacuum leak or failed throttle body gasket allowing in un-metered air. This will be more of a problem when the engine is cold- as again the ECU cannot check on exhaust o2 content as it will be ignoring the o2 sensor. So check very carefully all PCV and intake hoses for splits or leaks.

Thirdly there have been countless software updates for your Marelli management system for all sorts of running and drivability issues, so get down to the dealer and have them uploaded.

Tim..

These will be hitting the used market before long and unsuspecting punters who dont read this newsgroup or even watch watchdog will hand over their dosh for this crud. They would be better off with a Skoda!

J

I do appreciate your help honestly, although some of your answers could be construed as a bit patronising. There is no doubt you have much more knowledge about cars than me. I have learnt a hell of a lot about my Peugeot since I purchased it over a year ago. The idling issue has been present on my car since I bought it being honest, just that since then, it has been getting progressively worse.

Obviously replacing the faulty lambda sensor eradicated the idling/cold starting issue for a while. Although it still happens. I am trying to solve it myself, or go armed to a mechanic with some idea of what it could be without being taken for a mug and ripped off.

Cookacat ( snipped-for-privacy@despammed.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Try the forums on GSFcarparts.com, or give us a hint as to where you are, and somebody round here may well know a good Pug/Cit specialist around your area.

The best thing about the recent PSA range is that so many Citroen specialists grew up when Cits were "wierd" and nobody else'd touch 'em. As the Cit range got more like Peugeots, the specialists took on Pugs as well. They work on nothing else. Your 306 is just the same, mechanically, as a

2.0 405, Xsara, Xantia, 406 - they see 'em *every* day. They'll have seen this umpteen times.

I reckon it's an air leak. You're not going to find it visually. I may be wrong. It's almost certainly something mechanical and something simple.

I live in North East London, I have been informed of a Peugeot Specialist in Walthamstow, but if anybody knows of a garage they can recommend that would be excellent.

I hope it's as simple as an air leak, insurance and MOT is due in couple of months.

Cookacat ( snipped-for-privacy@despammed.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

I don't know anybody round that area, but I'll have a word with friends.

Shouldn't be an MOT fail.

Engage brain before keyboard will you.

If its idle quality is poor and its liable to stall then in all probability the emissions will be out of spec and it will fail 'cos of this.

Tim..

Tim (Remove NOSPAM. ( snipped-for-privacy@NOSPAMbtinternet.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Thought it was only when starting from cold that it wouldn't idle?

"it still stalls when starting from cold. About one in four times I have to let it warm up to running temperature, turn off the car for 20 secs or so, start it up then it seems to be ok"

"the idling/cold starting issue"

Have you checked the coolant temperature sensor as it has a big effect on idleing & your problem seems to be temperature sensitive?