Re: Electric Cars at the American International Auto Show

They're going electric in the Motor City, Detroit -- well, maybe not > just yet.

> But it made for a nice "buzz" as the world auto industry gathered at > one of its premier events, the North American International Auto Show, > with gas-electric hybrids and even "plug-in" electric cars all the > rage.

Plug-in electrics! They really have it in for the environment over there.

Reply to
Depresion
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Nothing wrong with plug in electric cars for round town driving! Also with modern battery technology it's possible to use them for between town driving (though cross country is out!) so you have to wonder why there are so few around - oh yes I forgot, the government relies on petrol tax revenues and the car makers don't want to produce cars which are cheaper and last longer, that'll be it.

Peter.

Reply to
Peter Spikings

Here it is: the Volt.

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"Unlike other hybrid cars, such as the Toyota Prius, the Volt's gasolineengine would never power the car's wheels. Instead, it would recharge thecar's batteries if needed while the car would continue to run on electricpower alone."

So now for the first time in hybrids, electric motors take the centre stage, the small petrol engine plays a supportive role. But look at the power of the electric motor: "...121 kilowatts, the equivalent of about 161 horsepower. It can produce 320 newton-meters, or about 236 foot-pounds, of torque."

It looks like this is the trend. This newsgroup will see more proportion of auto-electric enthusiast than the purely mechanical experts from now on.

Reply to
Lin Chung

I certainly hope this is the trend :) The ideal car for me at the moment would be such a car but with the ability to be able to charge it at home as well.

We're a long way off yet though!

Peter.

Reply to
Peter Spikings

Until we have a *lot* more clean electricity sources than we do now, electric cars only move the pollution elsewhere (and create more of it).

Tim

Reply to
Tim Downie

They release more CO2 per mile than a petrol equivalent. Most would be band F for road tax.

Reply to
Depresion

Wouldn't you need a long mains lead?

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

That's taking the misconception that electric cars just move the emissions around one step further! Typically the overall efficiency of an electric car powered by fossil fuels burnt in a power station is 30%. Petrol engines have a theoretical maximum efficiency of 25% and manage less than 10% when driven enthusiastically. Driving an electric car hard will typically significantly reduce it's range but not affect too much the total energy consumed due to the way batteries work.

Also, try powering a petrol car from a wind farm :)

Reply to
Peter Spikings

Please give details of the modern battery that can store the equivalent amount of energy to a petrol or diesel tank?

If the towns are close together, yes.

Why?

Well, there have been electric vehicles around - off and on - for many many years. And several recent up to date models - produced by the major makers for evaluation. But all disappear without trace. Blamed on all sorts of reasons apart from the obvious one.

The first thing is a modern high tech battery is anything but cheap. Nor will it last a normal car's lifetime.

Of course every so often we are told of the latest breakthrough that has solved this. And have been for the last many many years...

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

You'd really need to pack those batteries in to have a range of 300+ miles :)

Yes, the EV1 springs to mind.

Well, they wouldn't outlast the car but they would still have respectable lifetimes. As for cost they should be cheap(ish) when mass produced, Li-Ions batteries are made from easy to obtain lithium and a polymer for the other pole so the raw materials aren't that expensive.

Yes, there's always hype and there's always been half hearted attempts by the car makers. When GM got it right with the EV1 they repossessed all of them when they overturned the legislation which prompted it's creation in the first place. They cited lack of demand (which was a lie).

Peter.

Reply to
Peter Spikings

Try powering anything from a wind farm when the wind isn't blowing (i.e. most of the time):-)

Reply to
Another Dave

Heh :)

I think the way round that is to build offshore farms in different parts of the country, then you can sort of rely on the law of averages plus take advantage of the regular on-shore / off-shore breezes.

Reply to
Peter Spikings

"Tim Downie" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@mid.individual.net:

My view exactly. TBH, I feel that the goverment sees enviromental issues as a good oppurtunity to placate people into accepting massive tax rises, rather than a genuine necessity to preserve the planet.

Sticking with cars, the most seemingly promising green fuel technology I've heard of so far is the Hydrogen powered 7 series that BMW have built. What's the drawback to this particular technology, apart from the predictable massive increase in demand for fresh water? AFAIK, the only combustion product is water vapour, so is the technology 100% renewable?

If we truly have the technology to create a 100% reliable fuel for transport, yet the masses continue to drive around burning fossil fuels, it shows where the real political power lies, and it isn't with the enviromentally concerned!

Stu

Reply to
Stu

Peter Spikings wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@peter.power.net.uk:

Driving a petrol car hard will significantly reduce it's range, and that won't affect the total energy consumed either, due to the way physics work ;-)

Stu

Reply to
Stu

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember Stu saying something like:

The big problem with Hydrogen power is the fuel storage. Highly-compressed hydrogen is a possibility, but there's a limit to how idiot and crash proof such tanks can be and of course, they'd weigh a ton. A promising technique is to store the Hydrogen in some kind of chemically bound form in a tank, so that it's only released when needed

- but that's years away from working reliably, afaik.

The principle of H fuel is great, just not ready to go on the scale needed. And, of course, a H car would sound right - not whiney like most leccy things.

Reply to
Grimly Curmudgeon

& about the only thing that has no problems with that is an elctric car. It doesn't work without batterys.
Reply to
Duncan Wood

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> "Unlike other hybrid cars, such as the Toyota Prius, the Volt's gasoline> > engine would never power the car's wheels. Instead, it would rechargethe

Well PSA Peugeot-Citroen are developing a hybrid diesel HDI/electric vehicle, which will be far more fuel efficient than the likes of the Prius.

Reply to
Brian

Agreed. I don't think they were totally electric though the ones they had in Detroit. They also had a "gasoline" engine I believe for journeys over 40 miles, or was that 40 mph?

Would be interesting to know what percentage of the electricity from power stations is actually electricity that is better for the environment, i.e. produced from wind farms, solar and nuclear.

I can understand why they are starting to get into their hybrids and becoming interested in the Fuel Cell/Hydrogen cars as well in the US. I think in this country though the electric bills are getting higher all the time. I can't imagine the savings for the sacrifice in performance to be worth it, unless you had a Hybrid electric vehicle that just recharges itself as it goes along or decelerates like the Prius or Insight. Even those vehicles though cost quite a bit more in maintenance and insurance.

I believe The Times had an article in it a few months ago about why Hybrids were not actually more environmentally friendly than other cars. In the survey they had some big gas guzzling I think it was a Suzuki, then they had a Hybrid, and what they did was compared the total cost of the vehicle and how much damage it caused to the environment from being built to being destroyed and disposed of, and the gas guzzler turned out to be better for the environment. I'm sure it was in the Times a few months back this article. It was very interesting.

Usually they are only judged on how good or bad they are for the environment from when they have already been built and for their average lifespan, but what this survey did was calculated which were the most damaging on the environment from being built to being disposed of, and a lot of the hybrids and cars that were supposed to be more environmentally didn't come anywhere near the top of the list, and it was surprising which ones did.

I like the massive hybrid SUV that Bill Clinton bought. Think that one just manages to do 20mpg. It's amazing how all these politicians are getting on the green bandwagon yet still managing to be hypocritical in their choice of vehicles.

We don't have anything to fear from climate change, except for climate change policy and taxes.

John

Reply to
John

Not difficult - the Prius is pathetic at speed over long distances.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Dave Plowman (News) ( snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Any IC/electric hybrid is going to be no better than a normal IC equivalent at speed/distance, surely?

It's a zero-sum game - the energy you get out can only be what you put in. The only possible benefits come in very localised emissions at low speed when the stored electric power kicks in in place of the IC power. The Pious has a veryveryvery restricted electric-only mode (30mph tops, very weak acceleration, 2 mile range) - then the IC kicks in to not only drive the car but to charge the batteries, thereby working *harder* than the IC-only equivalent...

Other than that, the only emissions benefit possible is through optimising the output of the IC unit, so that it's working at peak efficiency, which the CVT box does. But so would a "normal" CVT box on an IC-only vehicle.

Reply to
Adrian

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