380SL - when the timing chain breaks?

$4k for a dual timing chain conversion? Somebody posted that number a while back. Have you heard of other costs or what would be a fair cost to have it done?

I posted the $4,000 , NOT for a conversion, which costs about $3,000 in a 380SL (less in a sedan because the pan is split in those). The $4,000 was in answer to an inqury about the cost of chain FAILURE.

Bill Ditmire Ditmire Motorworks,Inc.

425 White Horse Pike Absecon,NJ 08201 609-641-3392

What is the breakdown of parts versus labor for the conversion? Does the engine have to be 'pulled'? How many hours does it take? My AC is the old refrigerant and most likely I would convert to R134 at the same time.

You can pull the engine or drop the subframe to pull the pan in the car.

Parts about 1,000, labor about 20-25 hours depending on what else is being done at the same time. AC conversion not a time factor. Bill Ditmire Ditmire Motorworks,Inc.

425 White Horse Pike Absecon,NJ 08201 609-641-3392

If you put a different drive chain in it expect a value below $5,000. If you break the engine by not changing the chain, expect less than $5,000 for it, I was just offering to rescue the car from an untenable position. If you want to drop something different in it, try the European 560 engine and really get the performance that the chassis was built for.

As for the $6k, that was sight unseen, with a car under utilized and with the old single chain and a fair offer.

JJ

Ptole

With an Isuzu motor? $2500.

I can understand your reluctance to accept that these single chain motors are not crap because Mercedes says so, but did you mention you had one before you asked?

Try calling some other MB dealers and chat up the parts guy and say you're thinking about getting an SL and ask them what they feel the good points and bad points are between say a 560SL and a 380SL.

Tom at Calibre motors might be a good plae to start.

Or if you want an outside opinion on the chance everybody on the Internet is lying to you try asking recognized authorities; try John Olson at slmarket.com or Todd Knutson who runs my SL list. They each have decades of experiece with all things Mercedes and expecially SL's.

This morning I stoped at an independent Mercedes repair shop. The guy I talked with was in his 50's and said he has spent his entire life working on Mercedes and knows SL's in and out. He claims he is well known in the area for his Mercedes repair expertise and he seems quite knowledgable. He said that the

380SL is the worst of the 107 group because of the engine being underpowered. He said that since I bought my 380SL new, did regular service, changed oil often, and did not abuse it that the single timing chain might not be that that big an issue. He said he thinks that perhaps those who let the oil get too low or did not change oil often enough is the reason for the failure. Mine does not leak oil nor burn oil - just not driven enough. He said he has repaired many engines when the timing chain failed and his costs were $1700-$2000 to convert to dual timing chain and $300 to convert the AC to R134 freon. Course, he did say that it might cost $6k if the chain failed to rebuild the engine.

It would be interesting to obtain 'data' as hard numbers on how these chains hold up so one can predict with probabilities of potential failure.

Not going to waste any more time trying to convince you, it is your car, your choice, and when It breaks I will not feel that I failed to try to help

Good luck

JJ

Ptolemy wrote:

Thanks for your advice JJ and most likely your advise is truth. All this talk has made me sorta paranoid and every little unusual sound from the engine has me in a state of wondering that I should take you guys advice. I most likely will have the chain converted but was wondering what 'data' Mercedes has on this issue and what internal memorandums they have that should be made available to back up what you say.

I remember when I was looking for an SL seeing an ad in Hemmings Motor News, around 1982-1983 timeframe. The ad was for a large number of 1978 450SL's that were stored for an Arab prince and housed at a location here in the USA. I looked in to this came close to flying out for a look see. I sometimes wished I had obtained one of those 450SL's instead of my 380SL. Then there was the 500SL I looked at buying - a German version gray market that would have been air lifted here. I think I remember that they offered a gray market 280SL too. All the same body as the 450/380SL but with the Euro bumpers and lights. Had to be retrofited for safety and evironment regulations but also might have been a interesting car. The Mercedes mechanics talked me out of the gray market SL -- they bad mouthed the ones they saw.

The 6 has less HP. If he's so well known what's his name?

Dude, give the f*ck up already. Everybody and his brother has assured you these things are ticking time bombs and have been known to break in as few as 30K miles. Do you really care what the statistical average is, or MTBF might be for your car? Just get the damn thing fixed already and be done with it.

The only people you seem to believe are ones that have a vested interest in your engine failing, have you considered that? Have you googled "mercedes single row timing chain" ?

Oh yeah, I have googled for "mercedes single row timing chain" and looked at a lot of websites. I would feel better if I had some data - MTBF, etc for assurance. You guys have put enough doubt in my mind that I need to get it converted unless Mercedes can refute (better yet give me some sort of guarantee) the need for it to be done.

I think this issue is detrimental to 380SL owners and possibly the reason that it has gone on for so long is what our local independent Mercedes expert stated that 'Mercedes has never done a recall'. Perhaps Mercedes is willing to abandon their customers in order to save their reputation?

Mr Sexton,

Please pass this on, if you will:

First off, here is a pretty good article on the subject:

I've played with 107 cars for 13 years. I've seen many early US market

380's succumb to the single row timing chain failure. I've also seen a number of those cars survive because the timing chain and top rails were swapped out every 50-60 K miles. The 40K reference in the article is a bit conservative, but not overly so. It's relatively cheap to just replace the chain. To the best of my knowledge, MB has stopped supplying that chain, but there are plenty of alternatives.

To conclude: A conversion is not necessary if the chain is replaced at

50K intervals or less. The cost of a single row chain replacement is 10% of a conversion to a double row, so it's doubtful that there would be any economic benefit for making the conversion. It's important to replace the rails, as they can cause as much damage when they get old and brittle as a snapped or slipped chain.

Todd Knutson

-----Original Message----- From: Richard J. Sexton [mailto: snipped-for-privacy@killi.net] Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 8:15 PM To: snipped-for-privacy@mbz.org Subject: 380 chain

Mr. Knutson; I read with interest this opinion on Usenet:

"This morning I stoped at an independent Mercedes repair shop. The guy I talked with was in his 50's and said he has spent his entire life working on Mercedes and knows SL's in and out. He claims he is well known in the area for his Mercedes repair expertise and he seems quite knowledgable. He said that the

380SL is the worst of the 107 group because of the engine being underpowered. He said that since I bought my 380SL new, did regular service, changed oil often, and did not abuse it that the single timing chain might not be that that big an issue. He said he thinks that perhaps those who let the oil get too low or did not change oil often enough is the reason for the failure. Mine does not leak oil nor burn oil - just not driven enough. He said he has repaired many engines when the timing chain failed and his costs were $1700-$2000 to convert to dual timing chain and $300 to convert the AC to R134 freon. Course, he did say that it might cost $6k if the chain failed to rebuild the engine.

It would be interesting to obtain 'data' as hard numbers on how these chains hold up so one can predict with probabilities of potential failure."

I was wondering if yoru group would like to comment on the accuracy of these statements.

-----------------------

Richard, thanks for the post. Regarding this issue, it appears we have the following:

- Doug Rugg says that at one time Mercedes did convert some of the early 380SLs, free of charge, to double row chain for some customers.

- Todd Knutson thinks a conversion is not necessary if the chain is replaced at

50K intervals or less.

- My local independent Mercedes mechanic concurs with Todd Knutson.

- But we have other experts whose opinion is that it is necessary to do a conversion to dual timing chain ASAP.

- Another post states that Mercedes MBUSA Note in its Technical Bulletin that the single timing chain "MUST NO LONGER BE INSTALLED!!!!"

- Mercedes no longer will supply the single timing chain.

- Still we have 1981-1983 380SL engine failures due to timing chain failures.

My Gosh, this is a highly controversial topic!!! As we say in the software world, is there a "Best Practice"????

Best Practice: Replace the single row chain with a double row chain. There is evidence that the single row chain can break and screw everything up. You can do various things to give the single row chain from causing probles, one of which includes replacing the chain every

50K and taking good care of the motor. There is no record of double row chains breaking and screwing up the motor.

You wanna piss about with a single row chain? Have at it, brother. But if you want a "Best Practice"- replace it with a double row chain.

Jeff

just change the chain or not. this thread is repetitive. you obviously prefer mercedes's information to the info supplied by everyone else. if you won't let yourself be convinced, there is no need to post further on the subject.

Troll from

"Trolling aims to elicit an emotional reaction from those with a hair-trigger on the reply key".

No, that is *not* what I was trying to do -- I was seeking to learn the truth from experts on this newsgroup who are more familar about this subject than I am. There is a lot of knowledge here and some of it is opposing and I was trying to discern what to do.

If you studied this entire thread, you will find independent Mercedes mechanics who are on both sides of this issue. Some of these independent mechanics are adamant that the chain must be replaced ASAP, others that it can exist but replaced every 50k or so miles. I believe that all the viewpoints were presented based on what they truely feel is the best thing to do based on their experiences. I respect all their opinions and wanted a forum to work this out.

That is a rather vague statement that can be construed both ways.