for anyone thinking of buying MB autos

But being able to thumb our noses as we cruise silently past lowlifes in pissant rice burners is worth whatever it costs.

hth

Status symbol =3D I can afford to waste lots of money on a car that requires high maintenance. short version of this =3D a fool and his money are easily parted

Over the years, we have heard a lot of gripes about unreliable luxury cars.

Lamborghini=92s LM002 =93had the durability of a potato chip,=94 one car- industry analyst remarked. Your typical Land Rover, one reader wrote, is =93as reliable as a drunken house painter.=94

And there are entire Web sites dedicated to jokes about Lucas, the company which used to supply mediocre electrical components to Jaguar, giving the automaker=92s build quality a miserable reputation that has endured for decades (=93Q. Why do the English drink warm beers? A. Because they have Lucas refrigerators=94).

In other words, if you buy a luxury car, don=92t expect it to be trouble- free. In Pictures: 2007=92s Most Reliable Luxury Cars

But some brands, particularly Japanese luxury automakers, are known for immaculate manufacturing. At the start of this year, half of the market=92s 16 most-reliable luxury cars -- the models which earn Consumer Reports=92 highest marks for predicted reliability and/or J.D. Power=92s highest marks for manufacturing quality -- were Japanese, including Toyota Motor's (nyse: TM - news - people ) $61,000 Lexus LS flagship sedan, which the carmaker just overhauled.

Dependable Drive The new LS is the fourth generation of the car since Lexus introduced the line in 1989, and it has garnered more awards for quality than any other luxury car, says Lexus. It has also won J.D. Power's Vehicle Dependability Index study every year it has been eligible.

Lexus builds five of the 16 most-reliable luxury cars. Its slogan used to be "the relentless pursuit of perfection," and it wasn't just lip service.

While the company has world-renowned manufacturing methods, "the pursuit of perfection" is implanted so vigorously into Toyota's corporate culture that Lexus engineers its trademark reliability into cars before they ever hit the factories. The company=92s designers and engineers have mastered the science behind the creation of reliable vehicles, and they don=92t need to wait to see how their technology and engineering will hold up on the actual cars, at least not to the extent that other manufacturers do (to test things out, other automakers need to build more pre-production prototypes than Lexus does).

Increasing Competition Given Toyota=92s merits, we were surprised to find that several other luxury cars compare favorably with Lexus=92 models, despite being issued by companies that are hardly Toyota-like.

DaimlerChrysler's (nyse: DCX - news - people ) Mercedes-Benz subsidiary, for example, has had reliability issues resulting in massive recalls and dreadful Consumer Reports ratings. However, J.D. Power has given two of the carmaker=92s vehicles (the SL and SLK convertibles) its highest marks for manufacturing quality. Power reports that SL and SLK owners, within 90 days of taking delivery of their new cars, are seeing very few problems with features, accessories, interior components and body quality. Could Mercedes finally be tackling its quality-control issues?

We=92re asking the same question of other German cars this year. In general, they are known for having technology that is prone to failure because of its complexity. Yet we were surprised to see cars by Mercedes, BMW and Porsche on our list this year.

The Findings Our list is made of new-model cars. A car is on our list if it has the highest marks for reliability from Consumer Reports and/or J.D. Power. Both use one-to-five scales for evaluating quality and reliability. A =93top marks=94 indicates a =93five=94 from Power or Consumer Reports, or both. The vast majority of luxury cars are not on our list.

What=92s more, not every luxury car has reliability ratings. If a car was new or overhauled for calendar-year 2006, don=92t expect to see it here. For example, Consumer Reports has not issued reliability predictions for Cadillac=92s Escalade and Acura=92s MDX, two SUVs that were overhauled last year. New cars like these need to be on the market longer in order for customers to report problems the vehicles may be having. And such blue-blooded cars as Maybach and Bentley models tend not to have reliability ratings from Power and Consumer Reports because the vehicles=92 volumes are too low to make for effective studies.

Power bases its overall manufacturing quality score on =93problems that have caused a complete breakdown or malfunction of any component, feature, or item--i.e., components that stop working or trim pieces that break or come loose.=94 Both Power and Consumer Reports base their quality and reliability ratings on owner responses to their surveys. Consumer Reports asks owners if they have had trouble with their cars=92 engines, electrical systems, paint, audio systems and other components.

Rest assured, it=92s possible to find luxury and reliability in one vehicle. And that=92s no joke.

Don't care about status quo. I care about surviving a car crash and being able to walk away with no or minor injury. With the way people drive in this world, it means alot.

Sure, you can say it is cheaper and more reliable in any car... but the stories I hear all the time... some even people we know... they don't fair well after a freak accident.

I see it in news all the time. Someone driving very recent model cars... dead... dead... dead... from a seeminly 'smallish type of accident'. Severe injuries... over and over again.

Then I recall incredible accidents in BMW's and Mercedes... they walked away on their own. BMW flipped over many times... walked away.... Mercedes rear ended by bottling truck.... walked away... Mercedes crashed into median at high speed and flipped over... walked away. Every single car totaled...

We have a dentist and he got into an accident in his Honda... he was in wheel chair for 6 months!

We have 2001 E320... super reliable... so I don't know about you saying

20-40 years ago great car... I work on older cars and they are much simpler in electronics.

Modern MB is very loaded in electronics to provide you safety... even MB techs laments about their complexities. A standard typical Honda doesn't even have 1/4 of electronics that MB has.

wow, you want to compare technology in new lexus LS 460?

Please keep comparisons in same type of cars. i didn't mention Honda. I said Lexus LS 400 considering the budget the poster was stating. The Lexus LS460 is at LEAST on par with any technology from german cars. Safety? These model cars (all the LS models) have 5 star safety rating from insurance safety crash tests in USA. 5 stars is the best rating a car can get. A Lexus LS460 has about the same or better levels of technology from any german auto with a huge difference - the Lexus isn't riddled with electronic problems/reliability issues the german cars have! This car is most definitely a luxury car that is also extremely RELIABLE. German car makers can spell RELIABLE, but that's about all they can do with that word...

Even shorter version. I've got it to waste and part with, you obviously do not.

LOL

~more "German cars bad" rhetoric~ snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com.... a BMW owner? Not surprisingly, a Google search for \ snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com/ spits back your lament about your BMW e39 problems. Rather ironic you slamming German cars here on Usenet?

Oh well, 4/14/08:

An FYI about USENET: (it is not a blog or tidy little website) Usenet is a wild and wooly place my friend. As a 20 yr veteran, I'll let you in on a secret. It's always wise to "develop" an alias that doesn't connect everything you've done online over the years to the prying eyes of Usenet. No great invitation to panic .... an FYI. (unless of course ~you~ find the search results for yourself reason to "panic", since I didn't really delve too deeply)

Since you are using googlegroups to post from anyway, one is able to create (IIRC) dozens of email accounts, each of which you can use safely to post to Usenet, which is NOT your primary email address that connects you to potential employers etc. or the entire world for that matter. It's very easy to shift your "nym" for googlegroups and still retain your primary email address - I recommend creating a new email ID altogether. This is not personal, it is advice I give to all.

The downside to the upside of big bad Google is, it retains stuff (we do online using email addies) for (we don't really know) but a 20 year period (or more) has been tossed around in various privacy discussions.

again.... hth, likely won't, I'm only a messenger.

Well, Excellent points. This at least proves I'm speaking from experience and not just ranting opinions. My experience with german cars (mine and my friends - several S500's and 420's) is exactly like you see - problems.

Just trying to save someone else the unpleasant experiences I had. Is this so bad??

Oskar

You are bradly stating MB stinks and now you say only Lexus LS460 is being compared... No other car to be spoken about.

Then again, how many people can afford $65K+ car. You are also basing on what your friends say... yet you don't own one.

We are owners here. Enough said.

No, but it's a huge generalization. And BM'ers can't compare to Benz's ever. I've got 2 88 300Es. Universally recognized as bomb proof. In salt-free roads countries they rack up millions of kilometers with fresh oil and filters and basic maintenance.

The daily drive I've had for the last four years. 300K on it. In that time I've purchased a new 80A alternator, and new brake lines front to back. - Nothing (capital N) else. -30C or +30C she gets me home. I've been driving since the 60s, from hi-performance domestics to family sized whales. Then came the Asian imports - drove them all as well. The lot of them left me stranded or had me on my back fixing anything and everything many more times than these old "Berlin Taxis" I'm now in love with. These are not prestige cars IMO. The 124s are heavy old clods that handle really well. Everything about them spells reliable, especially the diesels. 20 yr old switches and sensors work. If they don't, a little WD40 breathes life back into them. Power windows go up and down - right. But these (even though they're MBZs) aren't what you're on about.

I'm speaking for myself and the legions of other guys that cherish their old Benz. We're not the same breed as CEO real estate magnates that want to flaunt. Anyone that buys the cars they leave behind are going to pay.... and pay. Sucks to be them. It's a trickle down.

The exotics (late model S class expecially) you're talking about share the same problems all exotics suffer from. I would not buy one. Lexus is rock solid yes, wouldn't buy one of those either.

People rarely "buy" higher-end cars today, leasing/financing is how it works currently. They weigh depreciation out, write it off and trade the cars after 2 years for new ones. Warranties take care of the rest and lifetime roadside assistance makes sure you're never stuck at the side of the road longer than an hour. Consumers today are into brands - that's a given, good or bad.

Electronic/computer beefs are #1`offenders. All cars have changed in quality since the nineties right down to quality of metal in motors and chassis. IMO computers have taken the happy out of motoring.

So many variables.

My friends with mercedes cars are all doctors. They are ignorant about cars and have been taken advantage of too many times. I help them with maintaining their cars. I'm very good with fixing cars (built my own racing car, really enjoy racing). I find good indie mechanics or know when it's time for dealer. I pretty much deal with all the ugly details of getting cars fixed, dealing with mechanics, shopping for parts at good prices, etc. This is about as heavy, 'in the trenches' as it gets for experience - isn't it?? I've seen the typical $4k plus repair bills they see a few times per year. I can go into lots of details if you like. I have lots of receipts, stories, etc. We are all pretty well off, but we prefer not to waste money. After seeing all the receipts it's very evident how often these cars fail.

Being aware of this, I tried the BMW 5 series. From research i've done, BMW and Porsche have the least amount of trouble regarding german cars. Audi has the distinction of being the worst. Mercedes and VW come next moving up the scale to less problems. The least amount of problems are from 6 cylinder 5 series models. The 3 series is pretty good too but too small. The 7 series BMW are just as bad or worse then MB and Audi. They are famous for how unreliable they are. Speak to any indy german car mechanic. The 8 and 10 cylinder 5 series come with more problems than the 6. The straight 6 engine isn't as strong but it's been around a long time and it is famous for being almost bullet proof. I didn't get engine problems, but I got several other very annoying problems with cooling and alternator (including pulleys). I don't want to go into a long rant but suffice to say I was shocked at how bad the reliability was. I couldn't get past 20k miles without a few visits to dealer for things that needed to be changed. On Lexus, I can go for 40k or more with just oil changes. My tires wore out so I changed them, worn out wiper blades - this is the typical things I change in 40k mile span. BMW (and any of my friends MB) NEVER go this far. I've known them for 7 years!! MB models are mostly S500 (their flagship model - supposedly the best model MB makes) and 1 AMG 55, 1

420. Years range from 2008 - 1987.

Oskar

Make sure you look the car over well, try to buy privately to get a sense of the kind of person that owned the car before you etc. My '89 300E has about

300k km on it now with no problems other than a water pump... and definitely it stops when I put the brakes on

cheers

If they get such a high bill couple of times per year, they are better off leasing the car or buy new car every time it goes out of warranty.

I know all about just by being a MB owner that the mechanics wants top $$$$$ for repair. I am sick of it.

I have driven Lexus and I admire the luxury and comfort... but it is boring... drives boring... don't like it.

Your friends are high net worth individuals... if they got into an accident, they want to be in the best car possible... and that is MB, BMW, and other high grade vehicles. They know and have seen many patients who suffered from car accident... for them, it is 'insurance' money to make sure their family is safe.

They can lower their 'insurance' expense buy buying extended warranty when they buy new cars. For older MB that is out of warranty, if they really like it, they need trusted mechanic where you can help. Otherwise, if it continues to be a money pit, it is time to upgrade.

I recall an old phrase... "I"d rather push a Mercedes then to drive a Lexus." when Lexus first came out.

So your in a taxi in that case, right? heh..

This isn't primarily about money in my opinion, it's more about the incredible annoyance and hassle of cars that don't work when they should.

I personally am a cheap bastard, so I am driving an old (1986) 190e which I paid $2700 (us) for about 6 years ago. I have had NO major repairs or problems in that six years of driving, other then regular maintenance issues (oil, gas, brakes, etc)...

I do have some annoying gremlins, which I consider par for the course in a 24 year old car.

I think we can all agree that MB's recent models could do better especially in the S class. Still, this isn't a Lexus group, so if you want to talk about Toyotas go there.

Speaking of extended warranty... Geico got an excellent plan... if you buy a new car, insure it with Geico and buy their extended warranty plan... for as long as you own the car and insured through Geico, your car is covered.

Check with Geico about this before buying a new car. I know of this because my brother has it.

Correct. My 88 300Es are Berlin taxis.

And when they work fine and get you home through blizzards and rush hour maniacs on the highway?

I'm with you 100%. My daily Benz cost $2500CDN 4 yrs back. Ditto on no problems. It's begging for vavle seals but oh well. A little 20W-50 and she's good to go.

Get cracking and fix 'em lazy bones. 190s are a snap.

It is very good policy for a new car. There is about a $500.00 deductible. You must be a policyholder at all times and can be transferred to another policyholder. The cost was about $120.00 per year increasing slightly yearly. All repairs must be preapproved by GEICO. GEICO send out a representative most of the time. There are the usual denial for oil leaks like it is with in specifications. I would say they are better than most third party carriers.

Troll alert.

X.

Thanks Thomas, that great info. $120 per year with $500 deductible is very reasonable... Alot of car repairs are over $500 per visit so it works out well... especially the major repairs.

Is there time limit to how long the extended warranty can last? As long as you own the car or like 10 years max?