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Juergen - Info Please

I admit I simplified matters - but with Germany and tax nothing is simple.... ;-)

Ok, the long way:

EFFECTIVE displacement in ccm is calculated by Pi * bore * bore : 4 * stroke * cylinders : 1000 (* = multiply, : = divide)

With the cars you mention the results are (calculated with MS Excel 2002, Pi as an Excel function):

240D W115 2404 ccm (3,141592654 * 91 *91 :4 * 92,9 *4 : 1000 = 2403,834857828440 = 2404) 240D W123 2399 ccm (3,141592654 * 90,9 *90,9 :4 * 92,9 *4 : 1000 = 2398,554607126370 = 2399)

However, the TAX displacement is calculated much different and that is what the model designations on the trunk lid are coming from, rounded-up to the next full 100 ccm and then divided by ten.

The calculation for the TAX displacement is: For Pi : 4 exactly 0.78 is assumed and bore and stroke are rounded down to the nearest 0,5 mm or full mm and then from the result everything behind the comma is _cut_ (no rounding here). Sounds complicated but comes from the 1950s when there were no computers used for calculation but printed charts and that way it was much easier.

240D W115 2376 ccm (0,78 * bore tax * bore tax * stroke tax * cylinders : 1000 = 0,78 * 91 * 91 * 92 * 4 : 1000 = 2376,97824 = 2376) 2376 rounded-up is 2400 divided by ten is 240 240D W123 2350 ccm (0,78 * bore tax * bore tax * stroke tax * cylinders : 1000 = 0,78 * 90,5 * 90,5 * 92 * 4 : 1000 = 2350,92936 = 2350) 2350 rounded-up is 2400 divided by ten is 240

Yes.

With the designations MB sticks to the TAX displacement - and displacement tax was 2376 ccm with the 240D W115; rounded-up to the next full hundred ccm is 2400 divided by ten is 240.

(300D)

Right, displacement effective for that is 3005 ccm (3,141592654 * 91 * 91 :4 * 92,4 *5 : 1000 =

3004,793572285550 = 3005) but displacement tax is 2971 ccm (0,78 * 91 * 91 * 92 * 5 : 1000 = 2971,2228 = 2971) 2971 rounded-up is 3000 divided by ten is 300

With the newer version the figures are (3,141592654 * 90,9 * 90,9 : 4 * 92,4 * 5 : 1000 =

2998,193258907960 = 2998) but displacement tax is 2938 ccm (0,78 * 90,5 * 90,5 * 92 * 5 : 1000 = 2938,6617 = 2938) 2938 rounded-up is 3000 divided by ten is 300

Displacement effective is 4520 ccm (3,141592654 * 92 * 92 : 4 * 85 * 8 : 1000 = 4520,374837397280 = 4520) but displacement tax is 4489 ccm (0,78 * 92 * 92 * 85 * 8 : 1000 = 4489,3056 = 4489)

4489 rounded-up is 4500 divided by ten is 450 380 models (3818 cc, and later 3839 cc), Old effective 3818, (3,141592654 * 92 * 92 : 4 * 71,8 * 8 : 1000 = 3818,387215589700 = 3818) new effective 3839 (3,141592654 * 88 * 88 : 4 * 78,9 * 8 : 1000 = 3839,036275783220 = 3839)

old tax is 3776 (0,78 * 92 * 92 * 71,5 * 8 : 1000 = 3776,29824 = 3776)

3776 rounded-up is 3800 divided by ten is 380

new tax is 3793 (0,78 * 88 * 88 * 78,5 * 8 : 1000 = 3793,32096 = 3793)

3793 rounded-up is 3800 divided by ten is 380 6-cyl. 230 models (including 230 SL, 2306 cc), M127 II has 2307 effective (3,141592654 * 82 * 82 : 4 * 72,8 * 6 : 1000 = 2306,748335098960 = 2307) and tax is 2281 ccm (0,78 * 82 * 82 * 72,5 * 6 : 1000 = 2281,4532 = 2281) 2281 rounded-up is 2300 divided by ten is 230

See above.

Yes, effective is 5025 (3,141592654 * 97 * 97 : 4 * 85 * 8 : 1000 = 5025,071697196480 = 5025) but tax is 4990 (0,78 * 97 * 97 * 85 * 8 : 1000 = 4990,5336 = 4990)

4990 rounded-up is 5000 divided by ten is 500 = 5.0

Effective is 2525 ccm (3,141592654 * 86 * 86 : 4 * 72,45 * 6 : 1000 = 2525,087453727130 = 2525) but tax is 2492 ccm (0,78 * 86 * 86 * 72 * 6 : 1000 = 2492,15616 = 2492)

2492 rounded-up is 2500 divided by ten is 250

Effective is 6333 (3,141592654 * 103 * 103 : 4 * 95 * 8 : 1000 = 6332,539727767480 = 6333) The 6332 come from the fact that for Pi exactly four digits after the comma are used, that gives

6332,352965, but as soon as one uses five or more or the Pi function in Excel it is at least 6332,534379 which is rounded-up to 6333 - but that is another story... Pi Effective ccm 3,14 6329,3294 3,141 6331,34511 3,1415 6332,352965 3,14159 6332,534379 3,141592 6332,53841 3,1415926 6332,53962 3,14159265 6332,539721 3,141592654 6332,539729 Excel function 6332,539728

Tax is 6289 ccm (0,78 * 103 * 103 * 95 * 8 : 1000 = 6289,0152 = 6289)

6289 rounded-up is 6300 divided by ten is 630 = 6.3

Effective is 6834 ccm (3,141592654 * 107 * 107 : 4 * 95 * 8 : 1000 = 6833,937915280410 = 6834) but tax is only 6786 ccm (0,78 * 107 * 107 * 95 * 8 : 1000 = 6786,9672 = 6786)

6786 rounded-up is 6800 divided by ten is 680 = 6.8 The reason here is simple: The Rolls-Royce Silver Shadows and the Camargue had engines with effective 6.75 litres ((bore = 104,1, stroke 99,1, V8, 6747,687820037850 = 6748 ccm) which would be rounded-up to 6.8 litres in normal speaking (although German tax ccm was only 6681) - MB simply wanted to have a bigger number than 6.8 on the trunk lid so it became 6.9.

Effective was 2746 ccm (3,141592654 * 86 * 86 : 4 * 78,8 * 6 : 1000 = 2746,402917235300 = 2746) and tax 2717 ccm (0,78 * 86 * 86 * 78,5 * 6 : 1000 = 2717,14248 = 2717)

2717 rounded-up is 2800 divided by ten is 280

As said my former post simplified matters - when you calculate German car tax displacement (so-called _Deutsche Steuerformel_ = German tax formula) it is clear that traditionally the designation on the trunk lid comes from the tax displacement rounded up to the next full 100 ccm and then divided by ten, see the examples above.

Or am I missing something?

Also kind regards to you from sunny Germany

Juergen

Reply to
Juergen .
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Thanks Danny and Juergen. Donkeys? Well, maybe, but those in my 240D aren't little donkeys! I just hope they don't require tons of bales of hay. LOL! I'm taking it to the mechanic tomorrow to replace the AC belt. He said he had to take another belt off. Here on the south-eastern coast of the US an AC is not merely inconvenient. Heat index yesterday and today was 105 degrees F. and the humidity stiffling. AC is a must! BTW, when you speak of a "US car" does that merely mean it was sold to the US or are there also differences? For example, the 240D I have was ordered from Germany. So how many ponies (donkeys)? 1983 240D 4 door blue sedan - ordered from Germany and shipped to USA in 1983. TIA

Helen

"Juergen ." wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@bigfoot.com... : So my 240D has not only 72 horses under the hood ;-) : but when these are on vacation nearly 212 donkeys? : : Aaaaah - 212 sounds sooo good! ;-)) : : : Juergen : ------------------------------------------------------------

Reply to
Helen

I must admit I do not know, too, what Dori means with Donkeys - but as that unit rises the power figure from 72 to

212 I definitely _do_ like donkeys! ;-)

That is right, the belt for the power steering pump has to be removed. I suggest to have the two other belts (power steering pump and water pump/ alternator checked - if needed have them replaced, too. Also I would suggest to have him check the two rubber water hoses between the motor block and the radiator - these are known to wear after many years and if so the engine could loose its water, overheat and then repair is $$$.

There are differences. These include things like bigger bumpers, front side marker lights integrated into the turn signals, rear side marker lights integrated into the rear lights, instruments with mileage scales, different headlights...

USA e.g.

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Non-US e.g.
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version with square-shape headlights)
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version with double-round headlights,red paint under headlights non-original=

It depends on - maybe a German model imported into the US, may have US-style conversions, may have no or littler US-style conversions, may be specially ordered from Germany due to certain options...

Have a look at

That is a US-model as one can see by

Juergen

Reply to
Juergen .

A good hour or so - the point is to have the formulas at hand. Some time ago - three years? - I had a private conversation with Danny about the subject.

At that time I got the tax formula which to my surprise was not so easy to get and I did some calculations then - if I remember right the point asked by Danny was why there were differences in the effective displacement of the very same engine at different sources and so a longer discussion about the calculations evolved: The point with effective displacement is Pi, depending on how many digits after the comma you use, the result differs slightly, best to see with the 6.3 and 6.9 M100 engines. For the 6.3 I mentioned the results, they range from 6329 ccm to 6333 ccm. Many sources state 6332 ccm so they use Pi as 3,1415 because 6332,352965 is rounded-down, but calculated with the Excel function (16 digits after the comma?) one gets

6332,539728 which is rounded-up to 6333 cccm.

In that discussion we also noticed that German tax displacement is somehow different, we both could not work out ourselves in which way, but finally I got hold of the exact formula: One simply has to know how it is calculated...

I did some spreadsheet calculations then and so all I had to do is to dig out these calculations and add the engines Danny mentioned in his recent posting to the group.

So you see no problem - once all the preparation work is done of course! ;-)

Juergen ccm eff 2399, ccm tax 2350

Reply to
Juergen .

Thanks for the explanation!

Looking under the hood - oops: bonnet - of my W123 reveals there is definitely more space than for the current 72 horses - but even considered a donkey is smaller than a horse I seriously doubt there is enough space for all 212... ;-))))

Juergen

Reply to
Juergen .

Donkeys are not only smaller but strong and stubborn too? ;O) . Where could I get a list of routine information like:

  1. Tire pressure. What's it supposed to be?
  2. Oil check. (Do this when the engine is cold - I learned today).
  3. Any other of these type things (fluid levels, battery, etc).

I want to make a spread sheet for various things with the date, etc.

Also, what's the word on "seals"? Are "seals" like gaskets? The owner informed me that there's a small oil leak. I don't know exactly what that means in terms of the amount, but when checked today it was fine. I asked about it and the mechanic said the only way to stop it is to replace the front seals and that would require leaving the vehicle over night with them, as opposed to a stop by and wait for a short while. Does anyone have any information on the amount of money we are speaking of when dealing with seals? Or any other advice? The oil leak is small but nonetheless a leak. I don't like oil leaks! Nor any other type leaks for that mat ter. TIA

Helen

Reply to
Helen

Exactly. In our saloons we look under bonnet, fill up with petrol (if not diesel) and put our luggage in the boot!

We also have gearboxes, though the chaps over the pond seem to talk about transmissions...

However, we still measure our speed in MPH (even if we now buy our apples and cheese in kilos).

DAS

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Reply to
Dori Schmetterling

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DAS

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Reply to
Dori Schmetterling

Juergen:

When you mentioned that the displacement of your W 123 240 D (newer version) was 2376 cc, it confused me because that is neither the real displacement (2399 cc) nor the tax displacement (2350 cc). That was the tax displacement of the older 240 D, but since you didn't mention it, I thought you had just made a mistake in your car's real displacement. Then when you stated your method of how the model numbers are arrived at, I thought you meant the real displacement and not the tax displacement (since you never mentioned tax displacement in your explanation). That is why I pointed out all those models whose displacements are a few cubic centimeters over what the model number indicates (e.g. the 4520 cc model 450) that according to you, by rounding up would give model numbers MB does not use. For example, the 450 would be 460, the older 240 D at 2404 cc would be 250 D, etc. I thought you were referring to the real displacement, not the tax displacement.

Now that you gave the longer explanation and that I see you used tax displacement on purpose, I made my own calculations of real displacement and tax displacement according to the Steureformel you gave me a few years ago. I found that there are exceptions to both methods of naming models whether by real or tax displacement. Whether you just round the real displacement up or down to the nearest 100 cc or you round the tax displacement up to the nearest

100 cc, there are models that will not work.

Some model numbers do not work according to either method. They are exceptions to the rule made on purpose by MB because MB wants a certain number on the trunk lid. For example, the 5.8-liter V12 which is model S 600, the old 6.9 (both real and tax displ show 6.8), the current 1.8-liter models C 200, etc.

Some models do not work according to your method. For example the current 4.3 liter, with 4266 cc of real displacement and 4196 cc of tax displacement. It is called 430 (according to real displacement) and not 420 (according to tax displacement). There are also some exceptions to the real displacement rule that do work with the tax displacement rule. For example, the 55 AMG models whose real displ is

5439 and Steuer 5401. According to my method, they should be 54 AMG models, but according to yours they are 55 AMG as MB names them.

The problem is that with many models which do not work according to one of the methods, you can defend the validity of your method by coming up with an explanation as to why it's an exception. You did it with the 6.9. Here's one to defend my method. The old M 110 DOHC inline-6 had a real displacement of 2746 cc and Steuer 2717 cc. According to my method it should have been model 270. According to you it should be 280, which it was. This does not automatically mean that the model number is based on the Steuer displ. The history of that model number is that the old M 130 engine (2778 cc and Steuer 2748 cc) was named correctly 280 according to both methods. MB reduced the cylinder bore 0.5 mm for the new M 110 engine. There had been many models named 280, e.g. 280 S,

280 SL, etc. MB simply wanted to keep the 280 designation and not switch to 270, so that the newer models would not seem inferior. Thus, they called the models powered by the M 110 engine 280 also even if their model number system is based on real displacement. This was simply and exception (like the 6.9).

Overall, I realize that there are many more exceptions using my method than yours, so it's very possible that you are correct.

Did you read anywhere that the method of naming the models is indeed based on rounding up the Steuer displacement, or did you just figure it out by observing the model numbers and comparing to the real and Steuer displacements?

Also, if you'd like my calculations of all the displacements going back to the Mercedes and Benz merger, I'll email them to you directly.

Best regards,

Danny

Reply to
E 55 AMG

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