ford dealership- normal service? screw job? or normal screw job?

Jim, where are you? I'm just curious with the Telus e-mail.... if you're close to me, I'll come by and see you next time my 5.0 (or Bronco) decides to give me grief.... (as you've already helped me in here before...) :)

Brad S

unscrupulous

Reply to
Brad
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Absolutely. I'm still trying to untangle why a 15k mile "tune-up" that consists of an oil change and "inspecting" all the rubber under the hood costs $USD 100. I frankly think that automakers have done very well at making cars very low maintenance but the service industry is doing as much as possible to make drivers think that cars need constant attention because the cars basically don't require anything but warranty repair otherwise. Service techs don't make shit on warranty service.

I know, I know. It's easier to get warranty service when you've been shelling out the $$$ to the dealer for "tune-ups" on cars that require nothing more than an oil change - according to the warranty schedule.

I'm still tickled pink that I bought a brand new car from one of the Ford companies, and no one took the time to run the TSBs as they delivered the car to me and say "there are a few warranty issues we should correct right away". No, it took a few months for me to notice a problem and find the TSB myself... then I had to take the car to the dealer twice to get it fixed (once to verify the problem they could have verified before delivery, another time to replace the parts after ordering them). The problem? Poorly designed fuel-filler results in early shut-off. It's not like a minor problem that most people would overlook.

Let's not overlook the Ford Windstar I had that developed a terrible brake shimmy after 12000 miles. I pulled the rotors and replaced them with aftermarket rotors which lasted more than 90k miles with one resurfacing, after the dealer tried to sell me a $300 brake job. Gosh, when I looked, I found a TSB that explained that Ford had installed *the wrong rotors* at the factory. You think the dealer volunteered this? Nope. They offered a $300 brake job *I didn't need*. I spent $100 and an hour of my time to fix it myself. I know, I know, I could have killed my family saving that $200... err, $300... but I didn't. That car stopped well right up until we sold it.

The two-week old Geo Prism we had in 1993... a brand new car. The ECU died and the dealer spent 5 days working on the car and then told me it would take two weeks to fix and cost $500. So I called the

1-800-ASK-GM-FOR-HELP number, and the customer service rep found an ECU and FedExed it to the dealer. Funny, the car was fixed two days later at $0 cost to me. Suppose I'd trusted the "experts" at the dealer...

Jim, I totally respect the skill and training that automotive service techs have. But it's getting harder to defend service techs when they're making the mortgage on superfluous service. Cars are more complicated than ever, but they're also more reliable than ever. The next time someone tries to sell me a $100 "fuel injector cleaning" on the basis of nothing more than "injectors can get clogged, you don't want that", I'm likely to say "let's pull those injectors out and test them, and if even one of them is clogged or sprays funny, I'll pay you $200 to clean them, otherwise you pay me $100 for trying to sell me a needless service". Wonder how many takers I'd have (I think the answer is *zero*, which is odd when *they* started out saying I needed the service).

Cars break and we need experts to fix them. But the "experts" have done much to erode trust when ordinary service that consists of nothing more than an oil change and probing/flashlighting all the rubber is over $USD 200 depending on the mile interval.

Don't get me wrong. I really do appreciate expert debugging and repair. I just have come to believe that the situation is artificially complicated in ways designed to exploit the consumer and it's breaking down the cycle of trust. When a service tech tells me something today, I have a lot of reason to question the validity. So please don't blame or get self-righteous with someone that can't believe a broken switch costs $130. They've got reason to ask and it's nothing personal.

Dana

Reply to
Dana Myers

Whoa. I've seen a lot of accidents in my driving days, and most of them were clearly the result of driver error. Perhaps things are different in your part of North America, but down here in California, people drive too fast and follow too closely and that's what causes accidents, as verified by my highway patrol friends I ask.

Dana

Reply to
Dana Myers

Well, I hope I haven't ruined your day...

$100 in Napa, California.

They're also unbelievable reliable now. That's the problem for dealers. Cars just don't need a lot of fixing. If it wasn't for that darn check-engine light, you'd never see a running car ;-)

In which cars in the 2004 model year?

In a hybrid car, sure. Otherwise, which 2004 models lack an alternator?

Which models? Since the only source of power in a car is the mechanical engine, pumps are still best driven by a belt. Perhaps you're referring to hybrids again?

In which currently-shipping models?

Sure. Cars that require oil changes every 5k miles or so and new plugs at 60k miles... that's been pretty revolutionary. Are you saying that the manufacturers have been making cars less reliable?

I'm sure this is true, but don't overlook that your fellow dealer service writers have tried more than once to sell me repairs I didn't need.

[...]

I don't disagree. I love it when people I know want me to come fix their computers, and then volunteer "I'll pay you". Every single time, I tell them, "You can't afford me". I fix the computers for the people that I care about and I refer the others to a reputable repair shop.

Dana

Reply to
Dana Myers

Let me clarify - I didn't need a $300 brake job. I needed the rotors replaced under warranty for $0.

Dana

Reply to
Dana Myers

Jim,

I decided to not go for the $800 repair or the $200 ethically questionable "cheap fix", because the problem seems to be related to extreme cold at around 0 to 10 F and I can work around that. Your post makes me curious though, is it truly illegal, forget ethics and liable suits for the moment, to take the brake pedal/shifter interlock out of a car?

Reply to
John

Oil changes every 7K are factory recommened. And those advances I mentioned are in the future. Not now. Reread my post. When the 42V system goes into production, you will start to see these things.

Michael

Reply to
Michael

It depends on the service conditions of the vehicle, I was mentioning an average figure.

42V systems are for the sake of hybrid cars, right? Higher storage voltage results in lower I^2*R losses in the cabling to the electric propulsion motor.

Dana

Reply to
Dana Myers

The cheapskates who don't want to pay for a quality repair shouldn't whine when their vehicle is a worthless piece of junk after several half assed repairs. You can take an otherwise good vehicle and turn it into junk by having several systems that weren't repaired properly.

Reply to
Mark Jones

I prefer a gear driven water pump. Less wear on the bearing because you don't have a belt pulling the shaft down.

Reply to
Mark Jones

Uh huh.. and if you live in Windsor as opposed to Detroit, the regular service interval is 5000km VS 5000mi (8000km). Not that I follow it, but no-one at Ford has been able to tell me why the difference. You cant tell me the weather is worse across the river in Windsor. :-P

Reply to
Jafo

I have read several articles on this and the primary reason for this is so you don't have to push so much current through the wires. The voltage loss from one end of a power cable is based on current times resistance of the wire( V = I x R). For a given power output, increasing the voltage will decrease the current and reduce the power loss.

This will be done to almost all vehicles, not just electrics and hybrids.

Reply to
Mark Jones

The power loss is I * I * R - hence I^2*R losses.

Hmmm. Must be an economy of scale issue, since 12V legacy requirements will persist for decades. Doubtlessly they'll use switching converters to produce the 12V requirement.

Dana

Reply to
Dana Myers

Electrical loads on a cars system have reached the limits of the current 14 volt alternator (yes... I said 14 volt this being the mean electrical system voltage with the motor running).... for this reason, the manufacturers settled on 42 volts being the next step in automotive developement (14 times

3 = 42). With the higher voltage, amperage requirements go down.... a 14 volt device that requires 3 amps would be replaced by a 42 volt device that draws only 1 amp. Additionally, there would a some measure of saving since the wires can be of smaller guage though the insulation needs to be improved to handle the increased voltage.

The starter and alternator that we are familiar with are to be replaced by a combination unit that would be in constant mesh with the ring gear.

Reply to
Jim Warman

Damn these fat fingers......

Now, where was I.... Oh....

Back in the mid to late 50s, we saw the change from 6 to 12 volt systems go pretty smooth so I can't envision any more problems with the switch to 42 volts...... I'm drawing real hard on my faith in human nature here seeing as modern consumers are quite different from those of us that are prehistoric....

I will admit that I haven't paid any attention if oil change intervals have been stretched..... Engine building techniques are quite different on most of Fords current line up. Engine sealing has improved vastly (though there are still some problems when aluminum heads are used in conjunction with cast blocks). Never-the-less, there's still alot of crap getting into our oil pans and with a reman 4.6 or 5.4 running upwards of $4long (plus installation) I'm not about to leave anything to chance.

Jim Warman snipped-for-privacy@telusplanet.net

Reply to
Jim Warman

I'm reasonably sure that we shall start seeing electric water pumps in the not so distant future.

Reply to
Jim Warman

So, dropping the current by a factor of 3 has the potential to decrease wiring losses by a factor of 9 or so.

I^2*R is the main reason long-distance power lines are extremely high-voltage, too.

Dana

Reply to
Dana Myers

With the amount of traffic that ISN'T on our local highways at various times...... depending on the day and the time of day, you can drive for a long, long time without seeing anything more than a moose or a couple of deer. The whole world isn't modelled after SoCal........ Slave Lake is a little town in the middle of a big forest in northern Alberta.... a "traffic jam" would be three pick ups at a four way stop. Most of the accidents we see are single vehicle incidents..... driver error is most definitely the major factor but there are times that the driver error is committed with the checkbook rather than the hands.

Most definitely, speeding and following too close are certainly leading causes of multiple vehicle accidents. Shoddy repairs and neglecting vehicle maintenance can only serve to exacerbate the problem.

Jim Warman snipped-for-privacy@telusplanet.net

Reply to
Jim Warman

There is no law stating that I cannot disable any safety devices (might vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction). However, if I did disable one of these devices, I could be found criminally negligent and I most assuredly would lose my journeymans certificate. The owner of the car, however, is free to do as he pleases though he might be named in a civil suit if the other parties insurance company found out.

These are safety devices design to protect us from eventualities.... personally, anything we can do to make our cars safer is welcome (within reason, of course...).

Jim Warman snipped-for-privacy@telusplanet.net

Reply to
Jim Warman

Right, that is why I said voltage.

I have a degree in electronics engineering, so I am familiar with ohms law.

Reply to
Mark Jones

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