Hybrids; A scam whose investment you never recoupe

CAFE is fundamentally flawed in many ways. It's what led to the explosion in SUV sales. Fleet fuel economy would have been better off had the big cars been allowed to survive in great numbers.

But yes, every calculation dollar wise has been in favor of the conventional version of the same vehicle.

I was gearing up to write some silly letter to the editor of the local paper, about how the Toyota Prius owners in my neighborhood -- Berkeley CA -- are so environmentally irresponsible to be driving these rolling Superfund sites when they don't even return that good an mpg. I found these factoids before I got bored:

"Many of us tried to drive the Prius like committed Greens. Other less patient colleagues hammered down. Our combined results: 1338 miles per

31.832 gallons, or 42.03 mpg. That's well up on the 35 mpg we managed from our last Prius, and it puts this one in fifth place in the C/D-Observed Fuel-Economy Hall of Fame, behind a 2002 Honda Insight hybrid (48), a 2000 Insight (47), a 1992 Suzuki Swift (45), and a 1998 VW Jetta TDI (43). That's still impressive, considering the Prius is bigger than all the above and that the Jetta was driven from coast to coast on the superslab."

CD 2/05

"12-Month Update, longterm 2004 Toyota Prius test:

"=B7 Total mileage 21,794 "=B7 Average fuel econ 42.0 mpg

"It's still good fun to see how high we can get the mpg readout on the screen to go--50 mpg isn't unusual."

MT 5/05

Compared to the EPA's rating of 60/51 city/highway, the 42.03 mpg that Car & Driver got in a 1300 mile road test, and the 42.0 that Motor Trend got over a 22,000 mile 12 month extended review, have to be ranked as disappointing. My family's Toyota Echo, which sells for less than half the price of a Prius, gets 37-40 mpg no matter how you drive it. Yet the 42 mpg Prius -- and not a 40 mpg '01 Echo, or Car and Driver's 45 mpg '92 Suzuki Swift or 43 mpg '98 Jetta diesel -- get the tax credits and the diamond lane passes.

What inspired my "research" was taking a walk through the nabe a week ago with the wife, and seeing THREE of these Prius things parked nose to tail. So I started paying attention and I swear I saw at least one and sometimes two or three PER BLOCK, 1st and 2nd gen included, over about a 20-block distance. In other words Berkeley CA is f***in overrun with these creepy little things. (And they ARE creepy, sneaking up on you on the electric motor only, like a golfcart only quieter.) That experience had me feeling like the scene in "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers," when we see the box truck leaving town loaded up with pods and headed for the big city.

Write it down, this whole fad is going to collapse and all these granolaheads are going to be cursing these things the loudest of all. It happens when a few tens of thousands of these smug little greenies either find themselves facing a $4000 battery pack replacement or a similarly disabling and expensive computer or other high tech service, or that they're looking at a huge depreciation hit at resale time because nobody's stupid enough to buy theirs.

I've figured it out, though, that these pod people don't really care about the mileage, they care about guilt, and about their smugness. The typical Prius owner thinks he or she should really be taking mass transit, but god forbid they should actually have to double or triple their travel time to get somewhere. They NEVER do. They drive (usually some damn Volvo) and they feel guilty. So they buy the greenest car there is, the Prius, and this makes it OK not to take the bus or the train. And better yet, to snear at everyone who's not evolved enough to follow them over the cliff.

180 Out

Be sure to read the bottom comment about the 2004 Prius:

Ah heck, I will quote it here, below.

Lynn

And, pilotmadrat, your's is also the same old boring, short-sighted regurgitation of the nay-sayers.

I've said it a million times elsewhere, if a gas/electric hybrid is "only 10-15% more efficient" (I'll argue that point later) and a diesel (or biodiesel) is 35-40% more efficient. Then a diesel (or biodiesel)/electric hybrid would, therefore, be more efficient than either a straight diesel (or biodiesel) or a gas/electric hybrid.

As to your point of "only 10-15% more efficient," let's see, my old 4-cyl Chevy S10 pickup averaged a respectable 27 mpg, my '04 Prius averages around 47 mpg (when taking into account winter/spring/summer/fall driving): that comes out an improvement of around

70-75% over my S10's average performance for my situation.

Now, let's also consider that my '04 Prius has a CD player, power windows (for all FOUR windows), 12 presets for FM and 6 for AM, Vehicle Stability Control, automatic climate control, ELECTRIC air conditioning (which means using the A/C doesn't drain my POWER when I'm driving uphill - more on that later), side air bags, room for 4 (5 according to Toyota's reckoning), folding rear and passenger seats (and the driver's seat folds down too, presumably for taking a nap when you are NOT driving), absolutley zero, nadda, no emissions coming out the tail pipe while sitting at a read light, and plenty of pep or "get-up-and-go".

I can't say my old S10 had any of those things, except for the 4 presets for the stereo and it did have 2 windows, though they were not powered and it had regular A/C.

Now, for you nit-pickers, yes, I know that the electric A/C will drain energy, my point is that I don't notice my car slogging along because of the A/C. That is, when the compressor kicked in on every other car I've owned or driven, the POWER dropped because of the mechanical nature of the A/C. A Prius, on the other hand, does not struggle because of the A/c being turned on. Of course, you will notice the battery draining faster and it could drain if you're speeding up a looong hill, but for 99% of my driving that doesn't happen ... and I live in Denver just East of the foothills. So, yes, the ENERGY will drain just the same (translating into lower mpg, as with every other vehicle in existence) but you won't notice a POWER drop. Of course, no other car out there will constantly recharge that extra A/C energy drain like a hybrid, which is why electric A/C is so nice in a hybrid.

I will agree that a decision to buy a hybrid strictly on economic factors is a tough sell, though I got around $3000 back in tax incentives, which means I paid just over $17,000 for my '04 Prius. I can also say I fit into my Prius fairly comfortably. I never did like my friend's Civic or VW Jetta (diesel), they were way too small for me.

And finally, given the standard features in a Prius, I think it is fairer to compare a Prius to a Camry or an Accord, and not to the Corolla or Civic.

Chevy S10 pickup averaged a respectable 27 mpg, my '04

winter/spring/summer/fall driving): that comes out an improvement of around

all FOUR windows), 12 presets for FM and 6 for AM,

conditioning (which means using the A/C doesn't drain my POWER

according to Toyota's reckoning),

Two comments: First, don't even try to compare your Prius to an S10 or ANY kind of pickup. That's like saying "My S10 hauls 500 lbs of dirt and my Prius doesn't". If you want to compare your Prius to something, compare it to another car.

Second, you say your Prius has room for 4 (5 according to Toyota), but you don't say that it has the power to haul your 4 or 5 people around. I've ridden in one. I know that it doesn't have the power to haul 4 people around. (Well, down hill maybe) Try some start and stop hilly city driving with 5 people. And when you do, I hope you have an impatient vehicle behind you with a loud horn.

Another poster mentioned the $4,000 battery. It might cost that by the time it's due for replacement, but I think some of them will cost twice that amount with a purchase today.

Bottom line: Except for the welfare check that the government gives you to buy it, your purchase woundn't pay for itself.

Let me cut it down:

Chevy S10 pickup averaged a respectable 27 mpg, my '04

winter/spring/summer/fall driving): that comes out an improvement of around

Last I heard a chevy S10 and Prius were not the same vehicle.

Go back and compare a standard civic and a hybrid civic.

In keeping with the newsgroup's Mustang theme, sounds to me like you've only ever driven vastly underpowered cars and trucks. 300+ HP ought to fix that slogging problem. ;)

Also, nobody ever mentions the extra load on the environment by the batteries. Once they are worn out, they will a) pollute some landfill or b) need more resources to be recycled properly.

It was mentioned two weeks ago that the new CAFE standards would hurt the hybrids even more than standard cars, in terms of what they claim their economy is.

It is not my Prius. I drive a Ford Expedition with the 3 valve 5.4L. I am just quoting the website posting. I do highly admire the Prius technology. It seems to be well thought out, especially the electric air conditioning.

I have been seriously considering purchasing a Mustang GT convertible as a third car. However, the potential availability of gasoline in the coming months is beginning to concern me.

If you tell me the future price of gasoline, I will tell you if the Prius will pay for itself. For instance, we were paying 27 cents per gallon in 1972 before the Arab oil embargo. In 1973 that jumped to 50 cents per gallon and then to $1.00 per gallon in 1979.

I suspect that if the USA or Israel bombs Iran in March, the price of gasoline may hit $10 per gallon in April here in Texas. That is, if you can get gasoline. Hurricane Rita was a very sobering experience here in Houston (we did not have gasoline generally available for over a week after the hurricane). A lot of stations did have diesel if you were willing to pay $3.50 per gallon.

BTW, the Prius has a $2,000 price over MSRP plus a six month waiting list here in Houston. Kind of like the GT convertible.

Lynn

I belive that the new CAFE test coming in 2008 will hurt the "phase 1" hybrids. It seems to me that a true hybrid has an electric motor with about 80% of the hp of the gas motor and electric air conditioning. The only hybrid that meets this is the Prius.

Lynn

yes if gas prices go up the hybrid's pay off comes quicker. Remember however you'll still be buying $10.00 a gallon gasoline with the rest of, just not as much. what happens if the big car makers do put the tech and research into regular gas powered cars? could we expect a 50 MPG mustang or a 35 MPG F-150? as was discussed months ago on this board gas mileage has been static while Emission (law driven) safety (law driven) and drivability (less warranty work driven) have improved steadily. Gasoline prices have not kept up with the economy in terms of inflation, therefore gas was relatively cheap, meaning MPG has not been a driving factor in auto research,. That may change shortly. if the MPG or the average vehicle doubles it will push hybrids back into the background again until the next crisis. instead of opening up the Alaskan preserve for more drilling the USGOV should actually fund bigger incentives for both the purchase and manufacturer of alternative/hybrid cars. When we switched from leaded to unleaded fuels, the transition was relatively quick and painless. We could do the same now, tax breaks for gas stations that put in hydrogen or charging stations, mandate all new vehicles either get big MPG or use alternative fuel.

According to one report, it's claimed MPG rating will drop from 56 to

37 under the new rules.

All cars EPA mpg ratings will drop. My wife's 2005 Honda Civic EX

5 speed coupe was epa rated at 33/38. She gets 25 in the city and 35 on the road.

Lynn

"Lynn McGuire" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

Aside from a very rough comparison tool, EPA mpg figures are meaningless. The only mileage figure that really counts is the mileage your own vehicle gets.

A lot of the problem is that any hint of a price rise all the morons go out and fill every container in their house with gasoline as if there will never be gasoline again... which of course only makes their fears of shortage and price spikes come true.

Do you think your P4 computer just came into being one day? You must be young to be so ignorant, and not remember the days of a 286, then a 386, and on and on... My MP3 player has more power than the first computer I bought in 1987. These hybrids may not be the cat's ass today but they will grow... BTW, you might consider upgrading your 486DX33 with 16 megs of RAM someday - I hear there is some new technology out there...

Brad

Ah yes the infamous "cat's ass". Would you be surprised to know that your MP3 player probably has more computing power & storage then the space shuttle? I shit you not, but the technology on that bad boy is

8088 based and it makes it up & down most times.

The real issue with hybrids is not so much the technology involved, but the longevity and viability of that technology. Why should I as Joe Consumer have to pay ten's of thousands of dollars for something that doesn't work as advertised, has no proven maintenance track record, and no history of sustaining resale value?

Believe it or not there are still plenty of uses for 486's. I have one running a version of Unix in use as a firewall. Still does it's job.

1981 Space Shuttle Intel 8086 and RCA 1802 (display controller) - Later Intel 80386 The Space shuttle uses the APA-101S computer (5 of them for redundancy). They run at about 1.2MIPS and still use a couple megs of ferrite core memory (which is impervious to radiation). The entire control software for the shuttle is less then one meg. The new glass cockpit in the shuttle runs on Intel 80386s 1990 Hubble Space Telescope Originally a DF-224 (8-bit). First service mission added a 386 coprocessor. The Hubble now runs on a 80486 1998 International Space Station Intel 80386SX-20 w/ Intel 80387 There are several computers on the ISS. The most important are the command computers which use the i386.

"BradandBrooks" wrote

Damn, and I thought my Tandy 1000 was the shiznit!!! Tape drive and EVERYTHING. Guess it's time to upgrade huh? Any suggestions? I heard the Pentium Pro was a good upgrade. It only takes me 7 hours to download one email.