Now the new law has passed. In the U.S. the other week, woman (texting) pulls out into the street. Bike comes along doing 85mph, ends up with the bike IN the car. Kills all three people involved. Sure, the bike was speeding, but he wouldn't have been able to stop if he'd been going 1/2 the speed. But the stupid car driver could have avoided it altogether. Cellphone-addicted MORONS need to be taught a strong lesson.
WTF was the bike doing 85MPH?? Add another moron to the list. reckless motorcycle riders need lessoning too.
Rich,,, it could only be someone like you that would try to make a speeder look like an innocent bystander...
I drive a motorcycle as often as our weather will allow.... instead of trying to drive 85 mph, I drive like I would like to be around next week.
Speed addicted morons need to be taught a strong lesson.... and it would be nice if they didn't take sell phone idiots and innocent passengers with them...
You are one fine piece of work...
You can also add anyone using a car stereo, the ash tray or lighter, adjusting the rearview mirror, conversing with passengers, yelling at the kids in the back seat, watching for street names, checking out garage sales along the street, and the list goes on and on. Any of these things could result in an accident. Notice that I said could. A vehicle, be it 2 wheel or more (I have not seen a unicycle yet that can break the speed limits) doing 85mph where access to the roadway is not limited, is bound to be involved in an accident.
In your cited case, the woman would likely have had sufficient time to cross or meld without incident had the MC not been covering so much distance in what? 1/4th or 1/3 the time a normal driver would have expected? Indeed, at 85mph, the other driver might not have seen the MC where the sound indicated it was. Think about that the next time you hear a siren coming.
Anything which interferes with a drivers attention to driving is a liability, but excessive speed is stupidity looking for a place to crash.
I really find that those who excuse violations of the rules of right of way because the person with the right of way was exceeding some arbitrary speed value to be the pieces of work. 85mph was probably stupid fast for whatever road it was, but we don't know that for sure. However, without a right of way violation there is no collision. The right of way violation is what puts two vehicles in conflict, not their respective speeds. It is the cause, not speed.
I've been yelled at by people who pulled right out in front of me that I was 'going too fast' on my _BICYCLE_. How dare I travel at 25mph or even 15mph! (and that's without exceeding the number on the sign) They couldn't be bothered to pay attention, so they just pull right out. If they can't notice bicyclists at 25mph, then there is something very wrong with their driving.
While driving I've had people run stop signs (as in not even stopping) in front of me and then claim I was going 'too fast' even with my speed under the arbitrary number set by the government. Why? because I should be going slower to compensate for their rude and stupid behavior that's why!
Someone was killed very close to where I live when a driver pulled their mercury sedan out in front of his motorcycle. He was apparently obeying the posted speed limit at the time (on a bright sunny day). Should he have been going slower? Some people want a traffic light there now. why? So people don't have to work at the task of driving.
Making 'speed' the focus means ignoring the real problem. People don't want to be bothered doing the work of driving so they figure they can just consider it someone else's duty to avoid them. Just make everyone else drive slower. (not them of course, everyone else)
That's a pretty weak argument on it's own.. as an avid motorcyclist, I have had many near misses cause by someone elses right of way violation... I have avoided them all - thus far... by using MY head, by observing the rules of the road and maintaining a high level of situational awareness...
Defensive driving... the human condition is frail and fraught with errors in judgement, lapses of attention and moments of utter idiocy... It isn't enough to simply point a scooter in a line and throw caution to the wind. Keeping a watchful eye for someone elses mistake (and observing a few rules of the road himself) might have delivered a different outcome for any and all involved. Had he been observing the speed limit... had he been situationally aware... had he been driving in a rational manner... he would most likely be alive to tell us he did everything in his power to be a safe driver...
In this accident BOTH drivers were in the wrong.... and since they are both dead, it doesn't matter how much blame is assigned to which driver...
And, since you seem to have missed my point... I wasn't excusing anyones violation... if EITHER driver had exercised any common sense, tragedy could have been avoided..
No, it's not a weak argument. The USA is all sorts of unsafe because it encourages stupidity while demanding everyone drive slowly. It's a lot like top posting. It's a system where everyone else is expected to adapt to the rudest people on the road. It's a transfer of responsibility of the task of driving on to others instead of dealing with it.
Don't you get tired of dealing with all the rude and selfish behavior out there? And eventually someone will do something so astoundingly stupid that you won't be able to compensate for them.
I've driven where the driving model is centered on people not interfering with each other instead of control freakishness on speed. It was wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. People kept right, people used signals, people paid attention, people accelerated when the light turned green, people didn't block, I could go on and on with all the behaviors I didn't have to deal with there.
Great. Works fine in 1930s Nebraska or some other place with little traffic and limited population. It simply doesn't scale. People don't have infinite tolerance. Everybody has a limit. The idea that we're all supposed to 'just take it' simply encourages rudeness. When there's a lot of people around, a good number take advantage of this ass-backwards system and behave very rudely ON PURPOSE. Others just don't care about what their actions do to others. They don't know you, they are unlikely to see you again so they don't care. Their phone call is more important than your life. You're supposed to drive 20mph or less to compensate for their stupidity and selfishness. Except when one of them is behind you.
No, you quite clearly jumped down the OP's throat.
Jumped down the OPs throat? I guess you haven't watched Rich before.... Rich believes that everyone should street race.... you don't need a gas pedal... An switch would do just as well...
As for safety.... If you depend on anyone else other than yourself for your own safety... you are a fool. But that's OK... because you might soon be relieved of the title... unfortunately "deceased" isn't an improvement.
You have someone going 85 miles per hour..... is he concerned with anyones safety? His own? Yours? Mine? Anyones?
You have someone "preoccupied". Were they concerned with anyones safety? Yours? Mine? Some wanker going 85 miles per hour?
Rich has a vendetta... you are becoming a willing subscriber.
None of us will be safe until every one of us participates.....
But... logic isn't required when it flies in the face of "having fun".
Top posting assures that you wont have to scroll down through line after line of stuff you already perused just to be sure I didn't say "me too".
Being contrary for the sake of being contrary is counterproductive and indicates a subliminal wish that you hadn't endured that piercing or body art when you should have been out becoming a statistic....
FWIW.... I spent many years on our local fire department.... Amongst other titles and duties, I am certified as a rescue technician.... scraping people like you up off the road .... scraping your victims up off the road... is something I tried not taking home.... I can see where your attitude can take you.... Too bad you can't.
If you are truly looking out for number one... you have to look out for every idiot out there....
If you worry about top posting - block me now.....
The system is designed such that the burden is shifted on 'everyone else'. Problem with such systems is that eventually the people who are responsible become very very very few.
You don't know what sort of road this was. You're making huge assumptions. I've had people pull out in front of me and CROSS interstates.
What's magic about 85? Because that's all you know.
Not at all. I just don't believe in your go slow idiot encouraging religion.
You and those like you have had 70+ years with your slow everyone down to compensate for rudeness and idiotcy. How has it worked? It's established a highwayman revenue collection for government. It's brought about a general disrespect for the vehicle code. It's brought lower saftety than what would be otherwise. It's created endless frustration and congestion. But what's the response? More enforcement of course... We now have checkpoints. Remember when the USA was better than the USSR and one of the reasons was there weren't checkpoints here?
Having fun... like this cop:
Top posting is 'I don't give a damn what you wrote, I'm not going to address the points made and just write another essay'
WTF ?
BLOOD ON THE HIGHWAY FLIMS! EMOTIONAL APPEALS. Sorry, your idea makes things WORSE. But here you go saying 'I'll be scraped off the road' the only way I'm getting scrapped off the road is if one of the poorly skilled drivers that the system you argue for created hits me when I'm bicycling. Or maybe you'll find a way to say I was 'going too fast' and blame me for it.
And your idea of road safety breeds more idiots.
You're the one who appears rude and refusing to address the points made. Not to mention lazy and shoving the editing work on other people to clean up the quoted material. Oh wait, that's your whole point, enabling rude and lazy people by restricting and burdening responsible and courteous people.
What, in Gods name, is your problem?
From your statements, you feel that you do not need to be involved in your own safety.... and you even go as far as to call me down for considering my own safety....
Almost amusing..... you are indicating that you have never... not ever... not once.... made an error in judgement while driving ( isn't exceeding the speed limit an error in judgement?). I applaud you.... after all these years, I find moments where I wish I had done something different - een though nobody died and no metal got bent. At the same time, you are depending on absolute strangers doing the "right thing" so that you will be safe....
Whats magic about 85? Wasn't that the MPH noted in the original post? Forgive ME if I am mistaken.... but - oh well.... you will try to twist it...
You are a most amazing young man.... you feel that you should be allowed to disregard the rules because the rest of us should be observing them.... You should be allowed to do 85 in a land where 85 isn't acceptable....
Nah... you aren't worth the effort... looking at your posts, I think you are twins.... There is no way on earth that one person could be that stupid....
You will obey the rules or you wont.... if you don't - shut the f*ck up....
What's yours?
I stated no such thing. That's your strawman. But top-posting helps you get away with such nonsense since your replies are disconnected from what I actually wrote. I stated that restricting the greater population to compensate for the stupid and rude only encourages stupid and rude behavior. When you tell people they have to go slow and yield 'for safety' to people doing stupid and dangerous things, some people begin to think they can do those stupid and dangerous moves and that the other people have to stop for them. Your teachings just make things worse, not better.
the vast majority of what I see on the road are not errors of judgement because someone just had that rare brain fart. They are the result of people who are too unconcerned to be bothered with what they are doing to other road users and intentional acts. Mere 'errors' are rather rare. Most are from a general disregard of other people on the road, an apparent belief that those others should compensate for them. The rest are people doing things outright intentionally.
When someone revs up their vehicle's engine and cuts you off without even a turn signal, that wasn't an error. When you sound a horn when someone is moving into your lane, they hesitate, then jerk the wheel to move into your lane rapidly, that's not an error. When someone conga-lines a left turn through an intersection and then gives you the finger when you stop on a green not to hit them, that's not an error. When someone is going 25 in a 45 and you finally get a chance to pass and they are talking on a cell phone and then accelerate to block the pass, that is not an error.
When someone just misses a light turning green, he'll accelerate well on a horn beep and maybe even apologize. When someone is operating with disregard to other road users he sits there longer and maybe flips off the people behind him. When someone just doesn't see a vehicle in lane he's moving into, upon hearing a horn backs off and aborts the lane change. The person who is doing it on purpose or has a disregard for other people (whom he expects to get out of his way) will continue the lane change.
You're the one acting like it's shocking and we have no idea what sort of road it was.
Look at all the things you assign me, then chastise me for. Here's a hint. I follow more rules than anyone I know of. WHy? Because I am one of those people whom, if I make the slightest error, I get punished for it. You know, those slight errors that are supposed to be forgive because they are honest mistakes?
Since you can't address my points, you resort to insults.
It would help if you could read and comprehend something above a childhood 'do as your told' mentality. I'm sorry that my questioning of the way things are is above and beyond your mental abilities. Sometimes you need to think for yourself, investigate for yourself, instead of believing what authority tells you without question. Furthermore, you need to control the knee-jerk to characterize anyone who questions the way those authorities do to avoid difficult questions and thoughts.
Here ya go... is this top posted or bottom posted?
If you (or anyone for that matter) is replying to a post, they should have spent the time to read the thread. Enclosing line after line of something we should have previously perused is nothing less than a waste of bandwidth and server storage. You have read my statements - I have read yours..... do we really need an echo?
Does "I really find that those who excuse violations of the rules of right of way because the person with the right of way was exceeding some arbitrary speed value to be the pieces of work" look familiar? You were defending the motorcyclists "right" to exceed the speed limit because he should expect that everyone else is obeying the law to a "T".
As previously stated.... Rich has an ulterior motive... he should be allowed to drive as fast as his car will go and the rest of us better get the f*ck out of his way....
You, young sir, are starting to sound like Rich...
"They are the result of people who are too unconcerned to be bothered with what they are doing to other road users and intentional acts." Like travelling at 85 miles per hour on a road that has intersections?
The idea behind rules of the road is that if we all follow them, we should have nearly zero fatalities.... in this case (and I'm sure we can agree on this) both drivers were involved in unsafe practices... If the driver that was supposedly texting (there were no survivors, remember?) had been paying close attention.... she/he may have seen the motorcycle... Had the motorcyclist been paying attention, he would have seen an intersection ahead and thought "Here is a place a car can pull out"...
I only have about 6 months of scooter weather a year... when I ride, I am always aware of the fact that I can be hard to see.... I ride accordingly... Us old guys generally ride "two covering".... that means two fingers over the front brake lever. It's the "sensible" thing to do...
So.... let's reduce this to it's basic formula.... I am wrong - yet I am alive.... The other biker was within his rights - and he isn't....
Way to go, Einstein...
Your text indicates you either didn't or prefer to substitute your own for mine. I don't see you cleaning up the quoted material, like most top posters you leave it at the bottom for others to clean up, so you're wasting the bandwidth. I'm doing all the cleaning work. Oddly this goes along with the idea of passing driving burdens along to someone else.
That's your strawman. What I wrote is that there is no speed slow enough to satisify that point of view. I went on to discuss how I've been told I was 'going to fast' when someone violated the rules of right of way when I was BICYCLING.
No, you just can't deal with my actual argument so you want to deal with a different one.
And speed would not matter because nobody would be trying to occupy the same space at the same time.
I'm sorry your mind cannot comprehend anything beyond the level of blood on the highway films and authority telling you what to do.
Fact: IF he was going 85, He probably totally screwed up his right of way because the person with *average* common sense figured there was plenty of room/time which if he'd been going 45, would have been totally accurate.
assuming speed of other vehicles instead of estimating it is poor driving.
BTW: I've seen cops do 90mph in a 45 zone. No lights. No sirens. I'd be dead if I assumed their speed with "average common sense".
No it's not, driving 85 in a 45 in traffic is what's stupid.
Cops are people, open to stupidity just like anyone else.
Yes it is. Assuming another person's speed is a good way to get dead.
I didn't say it wasn't. But it depends on what sort of 45 zone you're talking about. There are interstates and other limited acccess highways around here with 45mph speed limits.
but can get away with it. Assume that cop was going 45 and be hit by him and he'll make it your fault.
On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 03:58:46 +0000, Brent rearranged some electrons to say:
Yeah, I've seen you. The guy that flipped over and rolled down the embankment because he lost control weaving in and out of traffic. If you're that much in a hurry to get there, why didn't you leave 5 minutes earlier?
If you pull out into someone's path, it IS your fault if they have the right of way, no matter how fast they are going.
*sigh* do you have an actual argument to make? It's really nice that you can come up with so many creative insults. BTW, I'm the guy you're tailgating because I'm only going the posted speed limit when the speed of traffic is 5-20mph faster.
I've had drivers right on my rear bumper, very angry, as I've driven right past cops running radar. Cops do anything? of course not. The last extremely angry tailgater I had to deal with was a woman who was pissed off I was doing 35 in a 35 in the right lane in front of a police station.
The reason I argue for properly set speed limits isn't because I want to go faster than you and what most people drive, it's just that I'd like to go as fast as 'everyone else' already does. Being tailgated practically every time I'm on the road isn't much fun.
Simply put, there's nothing wrong with 85mph on most limited access highways in most modern passenger cars or motorcycles.
Gee, that's what I've been arguing. So what's with the 'flipped over in the ditch' crap above? However I didn't say anything about a right of way violation to get hit by the cop. I wrote that one is hit by one, he'll make it your fault. You could have a green signal and he blew through the red at 85mph. You could get rear-ended while doing the posted speed limit in the right lane. Any number of ways.
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