When 500HP Isn't Enough. Enter GT500 "R"

IMO, GM needs to put out a RWD car that can come in differing varieties like 2-door, 4-door, convertible etc. They can get a lot of mileage from one chassis and save on cost. If a new Camaro does appear I think they will spend too much on the drive train and suspension and let the rest of the car go to hell. That is what they did with the last one.

I think the hp wars are coming to an end. We now have cars in the 500 hp range and much more than this is just a waste because it can't be put to use. Also, there will be a backlash from the insurance companies or the government eventually that will stop the madness. As for the Mustang, IMO, when anyone compares it to a Vette it has already one a victory in that it is being compared to a more expensive and much better car. It would be like someone complimenting my golf game by comparing me to Tiger Woods. :)

Yes, even if it means the car doesn't perform as well as a Mustang. They can make after market parts available for those that want ultra high performance.

That's what they need to do, but they would rather continue to trash the good names of their earlier RWD cars on boring FWD hunks of crap or toastermobiles at best.

Or have so many compromises throught out what could have been a well designed and well manufactured car that the end result is unreliable and has multiple ways to catch fire, like the fiero.

That's pure revisionism. The vast majority of the Chevy II/Nova, Chevelle/Malibu, and Biscayne/Bel Air/Impala production in days of yore were rubber floor-matted four door shitboxes with nasty plastic upholstery, a six or a limp-wristed 283 under the hood, a 3 on the tree or a 2-spd Powerglide, maybe an AM radio, and rarely any A/C. They handled like flat-bottomed boats. Their brakes were dangerously under-engineered, and the available power brakes and power steering were dangerously over-assisted. They had insufficient power-to-weight ratios to get out of their own way, and at the same were inefficient and dirty. Any modern product which came close to the standards set by these old heaps would be laughed out of the market. In fact, a good deal of GM and Ford's present problems have to do with the similarities of their current line-ups to the old days, not the dissimilarities.

One thing that is a major, if not disabling, obstacle to the "New Camaro" are the claims on the Camaro name of Quebec and Canada, as reported by Popular Hot Rodding here:

. In summary: in 1987 GM was planning to close its Ste. Therese assembly plant, 200,000 vehicle/yr capacity, built in 1965, and Quebec's only automotive assembly plant. To persuade GM not to close the plant, the provincial and national governments gave GM a 30-yr interest free $220,000,000 loan and waived $100,000,000 in taxes. In exchange, GM agreed that the Ste. Therese plant would have the exclusive right to produce Camaros and Firebirds. Apparently this provision was also incorporated into GM's contract with the Canadian Auto Workers union. (PHR is a little vague.) GM also agreed not to shut down Ste. Therese for any reason until 2001. (In fact the 4th gen Cambirds were in production at Ste. Therese from model years '93 to '02. The last one was built on August 29, 2002.)

In the same late '90's timeframe as Buick was considering the importation of Austraila's Holden Statesman (built on the same chassis as Germany's Opel/Cadillac Catera), the idea was floated that GM could build a new Camaro on the same chassis. I guess this means, built either by Holden or Opel, and not at Ste. Therese, because according to PHR this plan was rejected "once the legal ramifications of closing Ste. Therese were realized."

As of July 2002 GM had decided it would be in its best interests to tear down the 2,100,000 sq. ft. Ste. Therese plant, because the real estate would be worth more as a vacant lot than as an under-utilized auto assembly plant. At the same time, GM publicly announced that the Camaro was going "on hiatus," and also that it intended never to build another Firebird. PHR speculates that these announcements were driven by the real estate decision: that GM would run afoul of the Ste. Therese exclusivity agreement if it was talking about a 5th gen Crapmaro at the same time as it was talking about demolishing the plant. A quote from PHR: "From a legal perspective, it might be construed that any future car that carried the name Camaro or Firebird would have to be made at this plant, at least till 2017, the year all Canadian government loans are to be repaid."

PHR reports that GM made various efforts to mitigate the hit on Quebec and the CAW, and tha therefor the government and the union might have stopped caring about where GM might build a 5th gen Crapmaro. But the story ends with the vague conclusion that Quebec, Canada, and the CAW continue to own some kind of legally enforceable claim to Camaro exclusivity. Yet there is no more Ste. Therese plant. It has been demolished.

Again, PHR is vague about the nature and enforceability of these claims. Of course its writers are gearheads, not lawyers. The answer lies in those loan agreements, and in the CAW collective bargaining agreement and its penumbra. But just to apply some arithmetic to the situation: dividing a $220,000,000 loan by 30 years means an annual payment of $7,333,333. 11 years are still left. So GM at a minimum might be looking at an obligation to make an immediate payoff of the $80,666,667 balance on the loan. There's also the $100,000,000 in waived taxes. If the provincial and national governments construed that money to be in consideration of a 30 year commitment, GM might also have to pay back a pro rata share of $36,666,667 on that score, as well.

I don't know how strong these parties' claims to Crapmaro exclusivity are, but I do wonder, why oh why do all the short term solutions that the genius MBA types running this country come up with so often seem to result in longterm problems like this? Do you think Toyota or Honda ever have to face an $80,000,000 upfront expense in order to plan and produce a new model? $80,000,000, and maybe as much as $117,000,000, that will contribute nothing to the quality of the new product. Sure, they're Canadian dollars, but that's still a lot of money for nothing but to paper over the decisions of a previous generation.

Finally, before we get too excited over the '09 or '11 or whatever 5th gen Crapmaro, I would also add this: "Remember the Zeta!"

180 Out

Which one are you saying is more complicated? The supercharged and intercooled 4-valve overhead cam V8 or normally aspirated pushrod V8?

700HP from 93 octane pump gas? I say don't ever get a bad tank of gas if it was making 650, and I'm sure Ford's warranty guys would say keep it under 600 for long-term reliability.

The last Cambird offering was a rush-to-build effort and I agree it clearly showed. Let's hope this next one is designed by a team of Camaro enthusiasts - ala' new Ford Mustang.

But you know the factory egos... no one wants to have a second-place offering. And that's what kept the Mustang/Camaro rivalry alive for 35 years.

True, but the trade off is an iron block, supercharger & intercooler hanging over the front end. So do you take the normally-aspirated, aluminum blocked and more balanced car? The dragstrip tuners would likely take the SC'd car, the rest, who would be content with the factory 500 horsepower, would likely take the more balanced car. The question is which holds the largest group of buyers?

The LS1 twins, dispite the advertising, made just as much HP as the C5. As for the performance numbers, a Camaro will never equal a Vette for the reasons of: added weight & lesser chassis. So dropping in a Vette motor will never equal a Camaro with Vette performance. But this combination could mean Mustang-beating performance.

With these dollar figures in mind, seems Chevy could build a Vette-motored Camaro for about 4K less than a GT500. Would a 500HP Camaro for $36K-$37K get buyers' attention?

the Camaro. It

A 500HP 3,600-3,700 pound Camaro will never beat a 400HP (which would likely move up to around 450 before the Camaro debuts) 3,100 pound Vette.

time it hits the

Agreed, the Camaro name isn't held in high regard with younger crowd; it likely only means "redneck". That said, if the new car is good and has an attractive price, like any car, it'll sell.

I think GM has given the Vette team enough freedom that they wouldn't be threatened by a new Camaro.

Patrick

Yes I know. However, in going to FWD, the entire population is rendered that way with little to no hope of modification to save them. After all, the vast bulk of mustangs have been 4 and 6 cylinder cars. It's these cars that support the performance models that make the name. Delete them and the name loses it's value, it's just another car.

Even with the boring base cars of the 70s on back, one can do something with them. Change them to V8s, build the inline 6, better the brakes and suspension. And do it relatively easily because of the availibility of aftermarket and manufacturers parts for the higher end versions. What is one to do with the FWD cars GM uses those name plates on today?

When you get to the hp/litre numbers we are talking about forced induction is simpler, and easier to obtain, than N/A, IMHO.

The GT500 is rated (probably conservatively) at 500 hp. This is with a Root's blower. Throw on a twin screww and you'll see another 80-100 hp at the same boost levels. Sharpen the tune and you'll see another

50-100 hp with a good safety factor. Also, a good knock sensor can avert disaster on a blown car. I run a J&S Knock Sensor module on my 89 LX and it works great. A factory installed one should work even better. I would bet the GT500 engine with a twin screw blower can run 700 crank hp without a hitch.

I hope so too. GM can't afford another bad design for the Camaro.

If this is true, or necessary, then we would be buying Camaros now instead of Mustangs. Performance wise, the Camaro dominated the Mustang for almost a decade and it didn't keep it from the scrap heap. ;)

Judging from the Mustang crowd, which I believe is similar to the Camaro crowd, I think offering a sophisticated high performance pony car is like throwing pearls before swine. The new Mustang is selling like mad with a solid axle and mediocre handling performance. IMO, Mustang and Camaro buyers are not going to be running SCCA races on the weekend. They are cruising to Price Club on Saturdays. They want to have a car that handles and stops fairly well and will light the tires up at a stop light. Basically, the old muscle car formula is alive and well... big engine in a small car.

Trouble is it keeps the Camaro from having a high performance model like the GT500. I don't think Ford is going to be the pushover like they were through the 90s when it comes to hp and performance. Chevy will have to be nudging the Vette to have a "Cobra killer" Camaro.

It would get my attention but we run into the problem of the Camaro getting too close to the base Vette's performance numbers.

the Camaro. It

No, but there will be those buyers that think the Camaro is good enough for their needs and won't buy the Vette. The Camaro doesn't have to beat the Vette to take away sales. I think that is why we never saw a high performance Camaro directly from Chevy.

time it hits the

I think GM over estimated the effect the GTO name plate would have on sales. It didn't mean anything to the younger crowd and a lot of the older crowd that did remember the car was pissed off at how it looked. I think GM would have been better off leaving the GTO badge off the car and save it for a retro version of the Goat.

Brent, not Brett. I knew that.

Was it just my imagination or did Michael Johnson spell his name "Micheal" for a while a few years ago?

Well, you could always pull one of these (a 5.0, 351W, or 4.6 rwd conversion of a Ford Focus):

Because those frontdrivers run their engines transversely, there's usually a ton of roombetween the shock towers, sometimes enough for a raised deck big blockif you so desire.

But seriously, folks, the probability of that happening on a large scale is low. I agree, I have a somewhat modified '65 Mustang fastback that is such a primitive P.O.S. that *anyone* could take it apart to the last nut and bolt and put it back together, without even needing a shop manual. (I rarely look at mine.) I've had this bug for about a year to put a 454W in there (4.125 x 4.250 = 454 ci) with CHI 3-V Cleveland heads, built for revs with roller everything and forged internals. The install would be a piece of cake. The cost would be less than $10,000. The result would be a obscene. If not obscene enough, maybe add a rear turbo and kick the hp up over 1000. All doable, and street legal even here in Cali.

180 Out

Yes, it's easier to make horsepower with forced induction; however, there's more complexity -- an additional air-pump, hoses, and radiator/intercooler. Plus, there's the added weight, heat, drag on the engine, and packaging issues. If you can make the same factory horsepower numbers, as is the case with the Z06's 427 cubic inch engine vs the blown 5.4, wouldn't it be wiser for the factory to just go with more cubes (6.2L Hurricane engine)?

Good argument! But let me go back to my counter of once you go past

500HP on the street, it then becomes who can produce the longest burnout, not who is quicker. If the current horsepower war continues, AWD will have be explored by the heavy hitters. .

The formula -- high rear deck, longish hood, upright seating position, RWD/V8, lightweight, short overhangs -- is so simple it's amazing they kept screwing it up.

I'm not saying horsepower/better track numbers equaled better sales. I'm only saying, the top brass from each company always had the desire to have the fastest ponycar.

True enough. But do you go with the potentially less expensive normally aspirated ponycar or the more expensive forced induction car.

The Vette guys will always ensure the base Vette tops the fastest ponycar, so that give the Vette-motored Camaro marketing room.

I highly doubt Vette guy cross-shop Camaros. They're a different breed entirely. Vette guys want status and image. A Camaro guy is a Joe

6-pack looking for fast car.

ZL1, SS 396 and LS1 twins.

Patrick

Where do the guys who have both a Camaro and a Corvette fit into this stereotype??

If cast iron had no mass and no volume, then it might have an advantage. However the added size of the block should make it no better than a draw packaging and weight wise. The only exception would be the same block bored out and/or stroked, however I don't think that's the case when one is talking a couple liters difference in displacement.

Status and image, I guess that's maybe a good number of those who have to get a new vette very few years, so it's probably a legit concern in the new car market. However in the used car market there are the vettes those guys are getting rid of. Dealers and the new vette buyers are concerned with this.

But that aside, status and image needs to be backed up in the automotive world. The status and image buyer doesn't want the camaro looking better on paper, on the street, or on the track. Nothing will embarass the status and image buyer more than joe sixpack out performing him. And this is where my story comes in...

One day I'm driving my winter beater, an '86 mazda 626. I manage to get ahead of this guy driving an aston martin vantage simply because I could manage my way through traffic better. At the next two stop lights he has to race me and show me how fast his car is... great... new aston martin beats old 4 cylinder japanese sedan, film at 11.

I've had vette drivers take off hard to make sure I didn't beat them.... with my bicycle. It's sick, but that's what they are playing to. That sort of vette driver isn't going to like that a camaro can beat the vette and he'll go looking for something that isn't made by GM.

No, not really. The problem with using brute force displacement is that it is a lot hungrier for gas, which seems to be at the top of people's minds these days. The benefit to forced induction is that under low or no boost (just regular cruising), it can actually get pretty good gas mileage. When you stomp on the gas and crank up the boost, only THEN do you pay the gas penalty. So you're right in that the system is more complex, but I think that's a fair trade-off to avoid getting 9mpg when you're just doing your daily driver chores.

Cheers,

The packaging is tighter on forced induction due to the additional parts but, IMO, that is where the complexity ends. The computer control for the Vette is really no different than for the GT500. It is just a few program instructions to adapt for forced induction. Also, forced induction usually means a smaller engine is used so there is less weight at the start. I doubt there is much of a weight penalty in most cases. The wonderful thing about the GT500 is it has a large displacement engine AND forced induction. The best of both worlds. :)

I think the 500-600 hp mark is the practical limit for street cars too. Any more than this is just for bragging rights. Now a Vette with 600 hp and AWD would be something to behold. It would shame the showroom race bikes.

One thing I would add is a torquey V-8. That is the one component the Japanese couldn't figure out to include in their sports cars.

GM has that mentality but Ford doesn't, IMO, for the base V-8 models. Ford has done a smart thing in having the Cobra model. It allows them to offer a Camaro killer for those that want or need it while keeping the base V-8 models more affordable. Once again, Chevy doesn't have this luxury.

In Ford's case they offer both. Choice for the consumer is a good thing. Plus, I would wager Ford spends less than $2,000 per car to add forced induction. Especially using a Root's blower.

If you are talking overall performance (i.e. straight line, handling, braking etc.) then I agree. The fact is that I don't see the base Vette beating a GT500 at the drag strip, even stock vs. stock. Throw a set of slicks on the GT500 and it will be no contest. It's torque curve will make up for the added weight, IMO.

As Brent pointed out the performance issue cuts two ways. There will be those that opt for the Camaro over the Vette for cost reasons and those that will choose another ride because they don't want "Joe Six Pack" in a redneck Camaro handing them their ass at a Stop light.

The first three engines are from a bygone era. The LS1 was in the base Camaro and Chevy never offered a higher performance version. My reference to a high performance Camaro was relative to the base V-8 model. I was surprised they allowed the LS1 cars to perform as close to the Vette as they did.

This is probably the cheapest horsepower gain you can get:

Test 1A % Increase or Reduction Hydrocarbons - 40.4% Carbon Monoxide - 42.6% Oxides of Nitrogen - 18.2% Horsepower + 4.3%

Test 2A % Increase or Reduction Hydrocarbons - 43.6% Carbon Monoxide - 34.3% Oxides of Nitrogen - 20.2% Horsepower + 5.2%

Test 3A % Increase or Reduction Hydrocarbons - 31.9% Carbon Monoxide - 25.0% Oxides of Nitrogen - 15.3% Horsepower + 5.6%

Test 4A % Increase or Reduction Hydrocarbons - 53.0% Carbon Monoxide - 28.2% Oxides of Nitrogen - 16.5% Horsepower + 6.5%

by the DOT, etc...

Michael Johns> > cds-> >

"Michael Johnson, PE" wrote

I wouldn't necessarily call 5.4L large. Maybe larger than the other Ford V8's but not large. Even the standard 5.7 350 chevy is bigger than that, and that's the base. It's actually smaller by comparison to pretty much anything the other 2 domestic companies are putting out from a performance standpoint. Dodge's base V8 displaces 5.7L. Chevy's smallest V8 is only .1L behind Fords largest V8 by displacing 5.3L. Then you jump straight to the

6L. No the "big" ford isn't big at all.

True 600hp would definitely be streetable as long as you had AWD. Look at someof the tuner Lancer EVO's putting out 550hp to the wheels using only a turbo 4 (no N2O). They stick to the road like Velcro.

They haven't needed to. They can get everything they need with what they already produce. Read my above statement. Styling is a different matter altogether. They're ugly. But they can put the pound down on just about everything produced here in the US with half the displacement. The only thing missing (which is a preference) is bottom end torque. These engines wind so high so quickly and easily that they can get in the 6-7K rpm range without a second thought and be right in the same torque off the line.

When talking about engines with forced induction on a production car in today's world, 5.4 litres is large. Even by V-8 standards it's still large for a production car and for many light trucks.

Those pocket rockets are fast and have a great bang for the buck ratio.

It is torque across the rpm range though that makes a pony car a pony car, IMO. The Japanese didn't deliver the traditional pony car performance and feel. They mistakenly thought we wanted refinement when what we really want is plenty of torque from idle to redline in a decent performing package at a good price.

No, spam you get no response:

Was based > Do I smell Spam?