Shortly after Mobil 1 appeared in the 1970s, I read an report on it in a chemical engineering journal. The article talked about an engine that ran on it for some 70,000 miles and was then taken apart and inspected. There was so little wear on the engine that the piston lap marks could still be seen. Also, the engine was free of sludge. It was speculated that gas mileage might be improved with synthetic oil because of reduced friction.
The article also stated that the molecules of synthetic oils are much smaller than those of petroleum oils, so if there is an engine leaks, it would pose a greater problem.
I bought a new car. The Nissan service people told me that with synthetic oil, the engine would last a lot longer. I would think you confirmed this in a big way!
At least in my mind, the question is not whether synthetic oil is technically better or not - I think it is - the question is whether it is cost effective or not. I think the answer to this for most people is No. If you are comparing like viscosity oils, the difference in fuel economy is negligible. If you change your oil according to manufacturer's instructions, chances are the engine will out live the rest of the car, or at least your desire to keep the car.
Now if you plan on keeping your car forever, or you are in a particularly harsh environment (either very hot or very cold), or you do a lot of stressful driving (pulling heavy loads/trailer, driving really fast, etc), you might be able to justify the added cost of synthetic oil. But for 95% of Americans, synthetic oil is not cost effective.
Personally, I like synthetic oil and use it several vehicles, but I know in my heart I am wasting money. In 35 years of car ownership I have never had an oil related engine failure. And except for one transmission failure, I've never kept a vehicle so long that it wasn't driven away (and even the vehicle with the bad transmission was driven away - you just couldn't back it up).
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:22:25 -0400, Codifus graced this newsgroup with:
..although incorrect. It really depends on how much you value your engine. Most modern engines now are suffering from oil sludge, rendering the engine totaled. And many of them being reported are well within the recommended oil change intervals and it doesn't take
150,000 miles either. Some Toyotas are reporting failures with engines *under* 50,000 miles. The only successful way to prevent oil sludging is to use synthetics.
There's tons of links on the Internet relating to the oil sludge problem. Just do a search on google for "oil sludge".
Older cars were not nearly susceptible to sludging but almost any recent model car can get it and it's because the oil passages are much smaller than older model cars. Toyotas and VW's seem to have the problem more than others but it's prevalent in all makes and models.
If you value your engine, then I *strongly* suggest sticking with synthetics.
Those Toyotas developed sludge problems as a result of an engineering problem on Toyota's part. Bad design. Actually, the design was not bad, but the implementation of it was. The jist of the issue was that Toyota was trying to beat an emissions issue so they ran their cars at a hotter driving temp, thereby making the oil sludge faster.
2ndly, since I am in-correct, let me just throw away my 1999 Sentra with
114K miles that has never seen synthetic oil. Oh, and I might as well throw away my wife's 98 Altima as well. 100K miles. Actually, maybe not. The Altima got a dose of synthetic and 98K miles because I didn't want to deal with changing it again so soon. So the reason that the car lasted 100K miles, the very last 2000 miles on synthetic, must because of the synthetic, of course.
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 20:38:24 -0400, Codifus graced this newsgroup with:
there isn't a production vehicle made in the last 15 years that can't go 100,000 miles. You're "proof" proves nothing except that I wouldn't buy either of your cars from you. Just because you have that kind of miles on the cars doesn't make them mechanically sound. Tear down the engine and look at the cylinder walls, then come back and repeat your mantra.
I've said it once and I'll say it again because apparently it's just not sinking in:
SYNTHETIC OILS ARE SUPERIOR OILS. THEY WILL ALSO INCREASE THE LIFE OF YOUR ENGINE. THEY WILL ALSO PREVENT SLUDGE.
You can repeat your mantra about dino oils all you want, but the fact remains that synthetic oils are better for your engine.
Really, it isn't that difficult to do a little research to come to the same conclusion.
Just because you still believe the world is flat doesn't make it so.
I can show you plenty of engines that have over 200k that have never seen synthetic oil. I agree 100K is nothing special these days, but how many new car buyers really plan on driving a car more than 100K miles? I know a few who do (including myself), but even then I doubt synthetic oil is cost effective compared to shorter change intervals with conventional oil. My Sister's Civic has around 130K and has only used conventional oil (mostly Havoline 5W30) changed at 7500 mile intervals. My SO's Plymouth van has over
200k miles and except for one oil change (one I did) has never seen anything but conventional oil changed at wildly irregular intervals (never less than
5000 miles, often much more). I've never used anything but conventional oils in my farm tractors and I've always changed them at 150 engine hours (roughly equivalent to 5000 very hard miles). My oldest farm tractor ( a
1981 Ford 7710) has over 5600 hours on the engine (probably a lot harder on the engine than 200,000 miles in a car) and the last time the valve cover was off, it looked like new inside.
Much of the positive press for synthetics come from Amsoil sales pitches. These really go way over the top in some cases. Mobil is much more reserved.
Among the vehicles I have experience with are almost every type you can imagine, including a number of farm tractors and trucks. Even more significantly my Sister has never had a problem with sludge and she has always changed oil at long intervals and used only conventional oil. Admittedly Toyota screwed up on some engines (so has Chrysler and VW) and created engines that were prone to sludge, but even for those engines, if you changed the oil regularly (following manufacturer's recommendations) and used decent quality oil that met warranty specifications, the chances of a sludge problem were very small. If you go over to the Toyota newsgroup and claim Toyota engines were prone to sludge you will be bombarded with testimony to the contrary.
There are tons of link's on the internet to UFO sighting as well. Maybe the space aliens are responsible for the sludge. How many of the people with sludge damaged engines can provide documentary evidence that they changed oil per the recommended intervals, or that they used oil that met the manufacturer's warranty requirements? How many of these people even bothered to notice that there were normal and severe service schedules for changing oil in their owner's guides?
This guy (John Matarese) claims to work in conjunction with Consumer Reports and is pretty much paraphrasing CR's most recent article on sludge prone engines. CR does recommend synthetic oil if you have a sludge prone engine (or alternately changing oil at the severe service interval).
Here is what CR has to say:
"HOW TO FIGHT SLUDGE
"Consumer Reports urges vehicle owners to keep thorough records of their automobile maintenance and repairs and make sure all receipts contain the date, mileage, and vehicle identification number.
"CR also recommends that owners of vehicles with sludge-prone engines use an American Petroleum Institute-approved synthetic motor oil or change oil according to the "extreme use" schedule in the vehicle's manual.
"Synthetics have a higher tolerance for extreme heat and flow better in cold temperatures. When using any oil, be sure it meets manufacturer viscosity guidelines.
"Changing oil on the extreme use schedule (and saving the records) provides evidence that you tried to protect the engine from sludge.
"Used-car buyers considering those vehicles should locate one with complete maintenance records"
CR list the following engines as "sludge prone:"
Audi/Volkswagen 1.8L 4 turbo -1997-2004 Audi A4,Volkswagen
Chrysler/Dodge 2.7L V-6 - 1998-2002 Chrysler Concorde, Chrysler Sebring, Dodge Intrepid, Dodge
Lexus/Toyota 3.0L V-6 - 1997-2001 Lexus ES300, Toyota Camry, Toyota Avalon, Toyota Sienna; 1999-2001 Lexus RX300, Toyota Camry Solara; 2001 Toyota Highlander
Toyota 2.2L 4 - 1997-2001 Toyota Camry, 1996-99 Toyota Celica, 1999-2001 Toyota Camry Solara
Saab 2.3L 4 turbo - 1999-2003 Saab 9-5, 1999 9-3 Viggen
So MAYBE if you own one of these vehicles synthetic oil might be a wise precaution (and doesn't Saab already specify synthetic for it's engines), but for most Americans, it is not cost effective. And even for these "sludge prone" engines, using good quality conventional oil changed at reasonable intervals is going to prevent any sludge problems. And then there is the discussion of exactly what do you mean by synthetic oil? Do faux-synthetics like Castrol Syntec and the Amsoil XL7500 oils count? Or do you only recommend "true" synthetics like Mobil 1 and some of the Amsoil products? And how about synthetics that don't meet API certification requirements (most Amsoil products except for XL7500 and the high mileage Mobil 1 products)?
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 08:42:50 -0400, "C. E. White" graced this newsgroup with:
First off, if you want to compare UFO sightings to synthetic oils, knock yourself out. "True" synthetics or even synthetic blends are better than straight dino oils. Yes, I see that you can state cases where an engine has run fine with dino oils but the fact remains, that synthetic (or even blends) are better than dino oils.
As for preventing sludge, there has been numerous reports of sludge
*even* while adhering to the recommended severe service intervals with dino oils. Hence the reason that CR recommends you keep accurate records.
Also, that listing is dated, there are more vehicles now that are reporting sludge related problems.
Again, if you want to use dino oil and you feel that it's just fine for your car, more power to you. However, and this is just a personal opinion, if given a choice, and all other things being equal, I would buy a car with 150,000 miles on the odo that has used synthetic oil over the same car that has used dino oil exclusively every time.
You know, this thread got weird fast. it was about how long to wait before changing to synthetic and it quickly devolved into a pissing contest about whose car runs longer/better/cleaner ad nauseaum. If you change the oil when it needs to be changed, and if the car was assembled well, it's gonna run
150 to 250 k miles each and every time with or without synthetic oil. Is synthetic better? Well, in a word yes. Is it necessary in order to achieve the longest trouble-free service from your engine? That depends; usually, no. But, if you want easy cranking in very cold weather and if you want the best high temp protection, then you really need synthetic oil. However, for most of us, it most likely is over-kill. Still, if it makes you sleep better, it's cheap for the price. That's my take. You may disagree, that's your prerogative but as for me, I'm done.
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 08:42:50 -0400, "C. E. White" >
Interesting and educational posts. What do you mean by "faux-synthetics like Castrol Syntec..."? Or where can I learn the difference between them and "true synthetics like Mobil 1..."? Maybe I'm not getting what I thought I was. I've used Castrol Syntec since I bought my Infiniti QX4 with 11,000 miles. It now has 35,000 (five oil changes).
Monte
...Do faux-synthetics like Castrol Syntec and the Amsoil XL7500 oils count? Or do you only recommend "true" synthetics like Mobil 1 and some of the Amsoil products? And how about synthetics that don't meet API certification requirements (most Amsoil products except for XL7500 and the high mileage Mobil 1 products)?
Not quite. Castrol engineers figured out a way to take dino oil, re-arrange the molecules and perform other chemistry, resulting in an oil the acts just like synthetic oil. Castrol Syntec is literally made from regular dino oil. Mobil sued Castrol for calling it full synthetic motor oil and lost. It's a shame really, but on the other hand, if it walks like duck and quacks like a duck, well.....?
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