Synthetic oil in hybrid

Just another example of a Toyota dealer/employee blowing smoke out of their ass.

What an idiot the service guy is, Mobil1 is the best you can get and is the most updated in formulas.

There are different classes of synthetics. Synthetic esters (Group V) and Polyalphaolefin (Group IV) are better than Hydrocracked (Group III). But any of these are better than the dino oil or cheap synthetic blends your local dealer tries to sell you at a premium. The Camry uses a gasoline engine, so there is an API certified motor oil for it in the US. No exceptions.

If you need to find a guide to good synthetics or how to find good synthetics, I would recommend studying these specs:

BMW Longlife 01 GM-LL-A-025 Mercedes MB229.5 Porsche Approval List 02 VW 502.00, 505.00, 503.01

No, Toyota doesn't have any advanced specification like the above.

Thanks for the reply. How can I tell which group a given synthetic is in? Tried google and got only some dated word of mouth suggestions and a plethora of Amsoil ad sites.

If you need to find a guide to good synthetics or how to find good synthetics, I would recommend studying these specs:

BMW Longlife 01 GM-LL-A-025 Mercedes MB229.5 Porsche Approval List 02 VW 502.00, 505.00, 503.01

No, Toyota doesn't have any advanced specification like the above.

I personally use dino oil and Purolator PureOne or Bosch Filtech, but would go with the advanced specifications listed. BMW's LL98 specs Group III. The LL01 may be Group IV or V, I don't know. The BMW LL04 oils need to work with the new BMW filter to prevent long term blocking of the filter element, as in Castrol's new "Clean Performance Technology" oils.

But don't try any of these "extended service" game in a Toyota. You'll get the synthetic benefit (Group III to V) during the 3000-5000 miles* service, but as I mentioned in another post, the crankcase sizes and filters of Toyotas are NOT designed for extended drain intervals. (* Note: Toyota in 2004 reduced the 7500-mile service interval down to

5000 miles because of engine sludge problems).

I looked at the Mobiloil.com MSDS sheets, but they made no differentiation there. So contacting the motor oil company is the most reliable way.

In the Mobil MSDS: "Mobil 1 5W-30 is made with a proprietary blend of high performance synthetic basestocks fortified with an advanced additive system." Mobil 1 0W-40 is made with a proprietary blend of ultra high performance synthetic basestocks fortified with Supersyn Technology.

Have you compared the optimal operating temperature(s) of synthetic's to non synthetic's?

The Camry Hybrid gas engine doe not run the same as a non-Hybrid. The Hybrid starts and stops frequently during normal driving, whereas a non-Hybrid runs continuously. This means the Hybrid engine will run cooler during the same driving run compared to a non-Hybrid engine. On short drives, with the Hybrid engines, this cooler temperature, has the potential of being very damaging if the oil is too heavy and doesn't flow to right spots quickly or quick enough. So, an oils viscosity would be very important if the engine it's in doesn't get up to the oil's optimal operating temperature quick enough.

But don't try any of these "extended service" game in a Toyota. You'll get the synthetic benefit (Group III to V) during the 3000-5000 miles* service, but as I mentioned in another post, the crankcase sizes and filters of Toyotas are NOT designed for extended drain intervals. (* Note: Toyota in 2004 reduced the 7500-mile service interval down to

5000 miles because of engine sludge problems).

I looked at the Mobiloil.com MSDS sheets, but they made no differentiation there. So contacting the motor oil company is the most reliable way.

In the Mobil MSDS: "Mobil 1 5W-30 is made with a proprietary blend of high performance synthetic basestocks fortified with an advanced additive system." Mobil 1 0W-40 is made with a proprietary blend of ultra high performance synthetic basestocks fortified with Supersyn Technology.

I think the comparison is made in viscosity index, such as ASTM D 445 KV or centistokes (cSt) at 40 and 100 deg C.

If dino and synthetics both meet the requirements, why not?

The worst moment for an internal combustion engine is when it's first started. The Camry Hybrid engine runs at a much cooler temperature than a non-Hybrid engine due to it's continuous starting and stopping.

Why not? You don't know whether they meet the requirements, you're comparing apples to oranges! The Spec's on the synthetic oil label's are for non-Hybrid engine's.

Route 101's service tech isn't limiting the choice of non-Synthetic oil's, just cautioning against using a synthetic oil in the Hybrid, at least at this time. A smart person would yield to the side of caution, especially when it comes to new technologies, such as the Camry Hybrid engine.

The hybrid would therefore benefit from synthetics ability to flow more at lower temps, which is why in real cold climates regular oil can ruin a motor from being to thick to flow when real cold out. Also isnt synthetic less prone to sludge from cold running. Id say use synthetic and he will get maybe 1-2 better mpg with mobil 1

The hybrid would therefore benefit from synthetics ability to flow more at lower temps, which is why in real cold climates regular oil can ruin a motor from being to thick to flow when real cold out. Also isnt synthetic less prone to sludge from cold running. Id say use synthetic and he will get maybe 1-2 better mpg with mobil 1

If, in fact, synthetic's do flow better at lower temp's than conventional oil, then yes it would be a benefit. But, I've not seen proof that that's the case with any of the synthetic's. Sludge isn't produced by cold(er) running. It's produced by high(er) temperature breakdown within the oil molecules, then when the engine cools down the oil isn't as viscous as it once was. Colder temperatures do effect viscosity, but, the sludge condition has all ready occurred. Yes, synthetic's are less prone to sludging.

Synthetic pours when regular oil wont at maybe -40f is so well known Im suprised you havnt heard about it, Sludge is made when motors dont get warm , from 1-2 mile a day trips to the store at cold temps when the water and gas byproducts cant boil out. My parents ruined their oil in 2000 miles one winter, from just doing the 2 mile trip, the same car I just put on 4500 and the oil was cleaner then the day I saw it at 2000. I know Mobil 1 site discusses cold weather affecting oil. Highway driving or high temp is when oils last longest.

A Toyota representative is going to be extremely hesitant to recommend anything other than the factory fill. This is because there is nothing in it for them, and a lot to loose (such as a lawsuit) if something goes wrong (even if it really had nothing to do with the oil).

Plus, there is the well documented difference between what people say, and what they do with their own cars. Ray O has never recommended synthetic oil (being a former employee of Toyota), even though we finally found out that he uses synthetic oil in all three of his personal vehicles.

Most smart people understand when synthetic oil has the most benefit (such as stop and go driving--or in this case an engine that stops and starts often). A smart person can read "between the lines" of the official Toyota recommendations and do the right thing.

Synthetic pours when regular oil wont at maybe -40f is so well known Im suprised you havnt heard about it, Sludge is made when motors dont get warm , from 1-2 mile a day trips to the store at cold temps when the water and gas byproducts cant boil out. My parents ruined their oil in 2000 miles one winter, from just doing the 2 mile trip, the same car I just put on 4500 and the oil was cleaner then the day I saw it at 2000. I know Mobil 1 site discusses cold weather affecting oil. Highway driving or high temp is when oils last longest.

You are, somewhat, correct when talking about sludge production at extremely low temperatures. I was talking about uses in area's that are normally above freezing, on average.

Most of the complaints to Toyota, at this web site, are above freezing, on average.

Try this site:

Oil sludge is the breakdown product of over-stressed oil in your engine. Oil that is stressed by contaminants and oxidation-or has to work thousands of miles longer than it was designed to-will break down into a gel that sticks to your engine parts. As the sludge sticks, there is less good oil to circulate and do its protective job. This coating of gel also stores heat instead of releasing it which stresses the radiator and cooling system.

Although at first the motor oil level may appear OK, a sludgy engine is being damaged with EVERY stroke. Your engine may lose oil pressure, get terrible gas mileage, and other components might mysteriously fail such as timing belts, idle speed controls, and gaskets.

Sludge begins to appear in the oil pan and valve covers. Oil filler cap inspection as an indicator of sludge build-up is not conclusive, as normal engines can have a small amount of sludge and condensation present at this 'high point' of the crankcase.

I plan to stay within the 5,000-mile interval to change the oil and filter, even with synthetic 0W20 or 5W20. For decades I have been using dino oil (usually Castrol GTX) and OEM filter, doing the change every 3,000 miles.

Thanks for all the responses.

Dont use 0-20 unless your car is specified for it

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I think the over long 7500 mile change requirements are what is to blame for sludge since the avg driver drives what is considered Harsh conditions. At 5000 my oil always looks real bad, at 7000 its has a real bad odor. I try to change at 4000.

0W20 is the preferred specification in the manuals; however, 5W20 is a listed acceptable alternate. That's what the dealer uses. Both are shown on the oil filler cap also. Besides, it's getting harder to find 0W20. I found some Mobil 1 one-quart bottles; but they more per quart than the 5qt 5W20. .............................. Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted !

Dont use 0-20 unless your car is specified for it

the mobil1 site has an auto calculator of what you save in gas by using 0-20, try it.

People who experience sludge typically DO NOT adhere to 7500 change intervals. In fact, most of these people simply forgot or didn't know that the oil needed to be changed.

Toyota sells roughly 10 million vehicles Each Year world-wide. If only one percent of customers don't change their oil on a regular basis, that amounts to 100,000 vehicles. Assuming that there are at least 50 million Toyota vehicles still on the road world-wide, that would mean that there are

500,000 vehicles being driven without regular oil changes (I think the number is much higher). This is how sludge occurs. It does not occur because of people changing their oil at 7500 mile intervals.

Conventional oil will definitely show its age after about 3000 to 4000 miles. Full synthetic oil can usually go twice that long before the same deterioration occurs.