1991 Gramd Am Stalling problem

I just purchased a 1991 Gramd Am LE with the 2.5 L 4cyl. It ran fine for a few days when I first purchased it last weekend, but the check enine light was on. The seller told me that the mechanic had disconneced the Oxygen sensor, something to do with the emissions test I beleive he said. The car ran fine for a few days. Then i took it in to get a safety check done, and my mechanic hooked the Oxygen Sensor back up for me. The car seemed to run fine for another day or so, then it stalled on me and I had to have it towed in for repair. My mechanic found the Crank Position Sensor was broken, and he replaced it. I took the car home, and it seemed to run fine, but the check engine light was now on again. When i got home, I checked it out, and sure enough, the Oxygen Sensor was disconnected again. I had to still get an emissions test done in order to get it on the road legally, so I hooked it back up, and tried to take it back to get the E test. It stalled again, on the way there. So I disconnected the Oxygen sensor yet again, and it started and ran fine. I took it for it's E test, and it failed misserably. The test showed that I was burning way too much fuel in the car, and the guy gave me a few ideas to look at. I drove it home from the test facility, and put in a new Oxygen sensor, new air cleaner, PCV filter, and plugs. I thought that this would help it pass the E test once i return with it, but the car stalled again on me this morning, and this time the Oxygen Sensor was disconnected. It seemed to run OK the other times while the Oxygen sensor was disconnected, now it does not.

Questions:

  1. What else could cause it to burn too much fuel?
  2. Is this the cause of all of the stalling or could it be something else?
  3. Does the EGR system have anything to do with the car stalling?

Any other help would be greatly appreciated.

TIA Duane

Reply to
69Olds
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Have you tried replacing the Oxygen sensor ? When it doesn't work or is isn't allowed to work the ECM (I think that's it) will just take guesses and put in more gas then it needs so you'll get worse mileage and the stalling may happen (I'm not to sure on that). And I believe the EGR system may make the car stall but IMO it doesn't sound like that.

Go here to see a test for trying out your oxygen sensor :

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Reply to
Phillip Schmid

By disconnecting the O2 sensor your cars computer will default the air fuel mixture to a rich setting. Driving under this condition for a period of time will cause your engine to build up carbon and clog your cat and foul out your plugs. Your catalytic converter might be ruined because of this. Why in the world did they keep playing with your o2 sensor? What was the test they were trying to perform and why did they leave it off? Neglect? Or because that was the only way to keep it running at that time? You need to fill us in more.

Reply to
Bonnevilles R Kewl

Mixed time posting going on here. :) The "greatness" of webtv.

I was thinking that perhaps the cat is bad as well. BUT, if a cat is bad, it's because of some other reason. In this case, since they unhooked your O2 sensor so much, that right there would ruin it. So it's hard to tell if it was bad in the first place.

Tony

Reply to
Tony V.

"Bonnevilles R Kewl" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@news-server.woh.rr.com...

I am not too sure of what the seller's mechanic had in mind when he disconnected it before I even bought it. They told me that the previous owner was "having a driveability problem" were his words. I was led to believe that the car was in to the mechanic a few days before I went to look at it and that that is when the O2 was disconnected, but I am now thinking that I was lied to. The car ran fine for a few days when I first took it home, but then when I took it in for a safety check to put it on the road, my mechanic(different one then the seller's) hooked it back up. All seemed well at first. I drove it from his shop to the ministry of transportation to get the paperwork done to get it on the road, which is about a half an hour drive away on the highway. Then I drove it home, about another half an hour or so again on the highway. Seemed just fine. I got home, called asnother place to get an emissions test done, let the car sit for about two hours(until the test facility could get me in), then headed in to get the E test done. The car stalled on me about ten minutes into the drive, on the highway again, and would not restart. Had it towed to my mechanic, he started it the next morning, and let it run fof abot twenty minutes, then it backfired, and stalled on him too. He found that the Crank position sensor was pooched, and replaced it. We thought that the problem was solved. I took the car home that day, and I noticed that the Check Engine light was on again. When i got home, I popped the hood, and the O2 was disconnected again.(I am not sure if my mechanic meant to leave it off or if he was just in a hurry. It was past his closing time, but he wanted to help me out.) I re-connected the O2 again, and left the car until morning, when I made another appointment for an E test. Car stalled again on the way there, but did restart once i disconnected the O2 again. The car failed the E test misserably though due to the O2 being unhooked while the test was running. The car would not have ran long enough to do the test otherwise. I have since replaced the O2 sensor, as well as the air cleaner, and the PCV filter.(Just filter, not valve) Car started this morning, then stalled about two minutes away from my home. Was then towed again, and I have not heard from the mechanic yet. I will talk to him tomorrow morning. I hope this answers all of the questions and can help someone help me out.

TIA Duane

Reply to
69Olds

I'm sorry, but I have a rather short attention span. You're pretty much saying that the car drives decent without the o2 sensor connected, and not with the O2 sensor connected. IOW the O2 sensor is sending garbage. Without the O2 sensor connected, the car will run but rich exhaust and everything, that will trigger the Check engine light.

Get the error codes first, connect a paper clip as described in another posting, count the flashing of the check engine light and put that info in your posting. That way you'll get some more to the point answers.

Did you already test the O2 sensor? What were the results? I have some different tests (never tried them) but they look a little easier.

Reply to
Baudolino

Just a thought, could his ECM be up the bungeye causing such grief?

Nick.

Reply to
Nick Trounson

Not enough to go on nick. It could be a fuel delivery issue. But yeah this car needs to be taken to a technician.

Reply to
Bonnevilles R Kewl

I used the word technician in place of the word mechanic because that seems to be his problem. It was my way of agreeing with Geoff on the "take it to a mechanic that has learned past 1982" statement. He needs to deal with someone who knows more about cars than just suck-bang-blow. Besides that it is a 1991, I doubt it has stored any codes.

Reply to
Bonnevilles R Kewl

The '91 stores codes, I have exactly the same car as he does. It doesn't store a lot of codes, so some thinking is required with the codes it gives.

Reply to
Baudolino

From what I read the guys car turned on a code probably because the o2 was disconnected. He never said the check engine light was on when the O2 was hooked back up.

Reply to
Bonnevilles R Kewl

Something seems stupid about this whole thing - from re-reading his explanations a few times its sounding like having the O2 off was causing it to run OK, but now that doesn't work either...

I have a feeling his connector and/or associated wiring has been damaged with all the connecting/disconnecting... or the ECM's doing something strange - but chances of that are pretty slim.

Nick.

suck-bang-blow.

Reply to
Nick Trounson

My guess your EGR valve is sticking open due to carbon buildup. But your tech needs to check codes first! It ill cost you a bundle replacing things for the hell of it.

Gary

Reply to
GARY

I checked the EGR, and it seems to move freely. I don't think that that is the problem.

Duane

Reply to
69Olds

I went and retrieved the error codes for the car, and it only came up with one. It was 12 which I have been told meens no error codes stored in system. Now What do I do??? Damn I prefer old cars!

Duane

Reply to
69Olds

The error codes were probably reset before you checked. Does the car run? run it until the check engine light comes on. You should even be able to get trouble codes by just running the starter. Besides that, be patient, it first says 12 three times and than goes to the other codes, again 3 times each. If the car doesn't give error codes, you just have to start at square one, check air, fuel, and spark.

I consider a '91 Grand Am old.

Reply to
Baudolino

Hehe, yeah I guess you are right on that, '91 is old, but I was refering to late 60's era cars. I guess i didn't wait long enough to see if there were more error codes. I seen the code 12 flash twice and considered it done. I will have to go back to check it out with the patience you speak of. hehe I will repost once I get this done.

Thanks Baudolino

Duane

Reply to
69Olds

OK, Here are the codes that it gives me.

13 which according to my book, sas "Oxygen Sensor or circuit", and 34 which has two different deffinitions. "Manifold Absolute Pressure )MAP) Sensor signal voltage low", or "Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor signal - low air indicated"

So, does anyone have any ideas as to where to start? Should I just replace the MAP Sensor? maybe the MAF sensor too? Or is there some way of proving either of these to be good or bad? Anything else that could cause these error codes?

Duane

Reply to
69Olds

Reply to
Bonnevilles R Kewl

They tell me you can "test" the Mass Air Flow sensor by tapping on it. It is one f the things that will cause stalling.

Gary

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Reply to
GARY

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