40 mpg Prius vs 50 mpg European Diesel cars

Oh, I do not think I am smarter than Toyota's engineers. I figure they are

Toyota has a reputation among the public and automotive press for making good cars. Toyota's reputation among automakers is that of being a moneymaking machine and being perhaps the best in the world at "doing business." i can tell you from firsthand experience that Toyota gives thought to every actioin.

I've often thought that Toyota should have designed and marketed the Highlander, RX 400h, Camry, GS, and LS hybrids for good fuel economy yet the emphasis for these vehicles is more on performance than fuel economy because Toyota is aware the hybrid powertrain does not make sense from a pure dollars and cents view. Rather than market to people who are trying to save money, they market to people with money who want performance and reasonable fuel economy.

Reply to
Ray O
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Generally you are correct. Problem though is if there is a lead foot behind me I'm compelled to accelerate much quicker in city traffic. What happens then is instead of the engine taking over at about 10-12 mph it kicks in about 2-3 mph. I've had people pull up beside me and yell (like they're ready to kill me) get that piece of shit off the road. My only recourse then is to not move at all. mark_

Reply to
mark digital

Yes - I think all variations stop altogether. In the Toyota system the engine is cranked by using the pair of motor/generators differentially to spin the engine up to 1100 rpm (IIRC) before feeding fuel and spark. Since some Prius cars are over 200K miles and running sweetly the strategy must be working. There aren't many engines that get oil pressure before being fired up.

What amazes me is that except for the occasional shudder when coming to a stop that Bill mentioned, I can rarely tell when the engine starts or stops. I would hazard a guess the engine restarts an average of something like once to ten times per mile in city driving. There is no starter sound ever - just "hmmm" and the engine is running as if by magic. OTOH, having the engine shut down is unnerving to new drivers (at least it was to my wife and me!)

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

Mine at least is US.

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

Michelle, as a fellow Arizonan (Zonie) I have to mention the best we've had is the round trip from Flagstaff to Sedona and back: 61 mpg for the 60 mile trip with about 2000 ft difference in elevation. Hybrids love hills!

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

"Ray O" ha scritto nel messaggio news:d8fa4$445bac3f$44a4a10d$ snipped-for-privacy@msgid.meganewsservers.com...

No prefix, in fact. Prius is a Latin adverb meaning "earlier", "before", "previously", "first" or an adjective with a similar meaning: "leading", "preceding", "previous", "earlier", "ahead", "in front".

Diako

Reply to
Diako

When the engine temperature or cat temperature drops below thresholds the engine fires back up. Some versions of the Prius reportedly have a "thermos" to hold coolant warm between trips, but I have no direct knowledge.

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

Close enough description, I think. Don't touch it, you'll break it. Sit back und watch der blinkenlights.

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

A coupl points to be added to the above.

The life of the batteries I know they are specially made given a standard battery life is 3-4 years. The cost of replacement plus warranty period (this may be seperate). Are they ( battery) recyclable. Like all cars they will at some point will required repair /service and the cost of this service ????????

Yandoit Australia

  • * * + "A poor excuse is like an old bucket; doesn't matter what shape it's in, as long as it holds water" * PK Shaw
Reply to
mailman

As Maxwall Smart would say " The old consumer pays trick. " Yandoit Australia

  • * * + "A poor excuse is like an old bucket; doesn't matter what shape it's in, as long as it holds water" * PK Shaw
Reply to
mailman

Expected life of Prius battery exceeds 10 years.

The cost of replacement plus warranty period (this may be seperate).

Who knows? None have been replaced yet. I heard the price has dropped considerably.

Are they ( battery) recyclable.

Yes.

Like all cars, that depends on what needs to be serviced and where the service is performed.

Reply to
Bill

=>

=>A lot of people used to be very sloppy and/or careless when they filled up =>and the next in line usually got some fuel on the bottom of their shoes, =>which meant tracking it inside the car. Gasoline without the scent added =>smells gross. =>I buy clear K-1 and though I'm very careful with it I do get some on my =>hands. It lingers like chlorine bleach. =>I don't care how clean diesel becomes in the future, the exhaust is =>typically very heavy and doesn't dissipate as easily as the fumes from =>burned gasoline. I don't know a single person who enjoys being behind a =>diesel, in slow traffic, on a hot summer day. =>

=>mark_

Smelly? Another urban myth?

Never smell anything behind UPS vans(MB/Dodge/Freight liner Sprinter Diesel Van) and they have been running in US for years now. Also, Sprinter van is the hottest commercial van on the market for years. For 28MPG, no other US vans can beat it.

Reply to
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

Every 2004 through 2006 Prius sold in the US has that thermos. I don't know about models sold in other countries.

Reply to
Michelle Steiner

Me too.

I hope to make it at least once; until about a decade ago, I was not emotionally ready to visit it, and since then I haven't had the opportunity to visit DC.

-- Michelle

Reply to
Michelle Steiner

exellent post!

Also, don't forget the pollution aspects of diesel, even modern ones, vs the low emissions Prius.

Reply to
beernuts

more expensive) also fuel filters and maintenance

today's market, in the winter you need blended fuel or

additives that keep the fuel from gelling.I have

it is, it cost more!

Wow. When I left Houston in 1987 (to move north), gas was 67 cents/gal

Reply to
beernuts

What are they alluding to when they call it a POS? I've never elicited such comments. Your part of Massachusetts must be populated by much ruder people!

Reply to
Jean B.

I understand that! I got a new work truck last October, a TDi that replaced a gasser. In November I had to make an emergency trip to the far side of the Big Rez in the middle of the night. I put over 400 miles on it before seeing an open gas station - the old gasser had a range of 350 miles max. The new TDi has a range of at least 600 miles with the same 30 gallon tank.

Depends on the service. I believe on the open road you are right - diesels are wonderfully efficient for moving vehicles at highway speeds and turbocharging with 1.5 bar allows more engine downsizing than hybridization does at this stage of the technology. Around town hybrids (at least the Toyota style) do much better than conventional diesel power trains by virtue of partially overcoming many of the huge inefficiencies of using the same engine for low speed movement as for cruising or for climbing hills at highway speeds. A diesel hybrid would combine both advantages if the issues of frequent start/shutdown cycles of the engine can be addressed.

A serial hybrid - where the engine just kept the battery in a proper state of charge and the electrics actually turned the wheels - is the next major step. In that application, a 1 to 1.5 liter turbocharged diesel would be plenty of power for any sedan. We ain't seen nutthin' yet!

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

Several others have posted fine links which describe the Prius' "eCVT"... thanks to all.

Let me add my own nutshell description, using a familiar effect many folks might have witnessed for themselves, that might illuminate how a simple planetary unit can act as a CVT:

Have you ever seen a conventional car, say a '63 Dodge or some other stone-simple vehicle, up on a lift with its engine running? Or attempting to accelerate on an icy patch? The engine spins the driveshaft, and if traction is equal at both rear wheels, then both spin identically. But if one has more "grip" than the other (either because it's on a comparatively dry spot, or because the mechanic is holding onto one wheel with the car on a lift) then the wheel with the lesser grip will do all the spinning.

That's how a conventional differential channels power from the engine.

That's also how the Prius' power-split device (aka "electronic CVT") works. Kinda/sorta: Imagine the gas engine in place of one wheel and an electric motor on the other. The driveshaft, then, becomes the output (instead of the input, as in the '63 Dodge). You can now run the gas engine at whatever speed you want and still get the desired output-shaft rotation rate by varying the speed (and direction) of the electric motor, either contributing power or taking it away depending on the circumstances. This means you can use an Atkinson/Miller-cycle design for your gas engine (or a direct-injection diesel) and take advantage of its higher thermodynamic efficiency while accommodating the peaky powerbands characteristic of these designs. It also means you can dispense with an alternator, since the motor can act as a generator. It also means you can eliminate the starter motor, since the motor can spin the gas engine if you hold the output shaft steady. And, by putting another motor on the output shaft, it ALSO means you can drive the car electrically when you want, or capture kinetic energy through regenerative braking. Being able to drive the car electrically means no reverse mechanism is needed either.

See how a simple differential lets you eliminate all that stuff you used to need? Transmission, clutch or torque converter, alternator, starter... and so on. Each elimination means a whole cascade of weight savings and loss reduction.

It's flippin' brilliant, and my real point is that it's a radical simplification of conventional automotive design, contrary to the picture painted by idiot journalists who wouldn't know a differential from a Dove Bar.

You can also see why I rebel at calling it a "CVT". There's no friction belt, for one thing, which is what other CVTs use. (All right, so Audi uses a compression belt, so sue me.) I don't trust 'em. They wear out, they're touchy about torque, they're stratospherically expensive to repair, and they're lossy. The only reason you're seeing them in other cars is as a kludge to allow their engines to run at peak efficiency, which luckily more than offsets the inefficiency of the friction belt. Talk about a technology demonstration! They're practically a science-fair project, IMHO. The Prius power-split device makes way more sense and is way simpler. Mark my words: there's a good likelihood that belt-type CVTs will be a dirty word in five years or so, when the first wave of disgruntled owners sees their transmissions disintegrate at 80,000 miles. Do the Prius a favor and help me stamp out "CVT" as a description of its technology!

Reply to
Scott

Back in the '70's I remember driving a small Toyota diesel pickup several hundred miles. They might as well have replaced the gas pedal with an on/off switch given holding it to the floor would just make 55. The fellow who owned it left it running in his driveway all night when it was -5F or colder. I take it they've improved, huh?

Reply to
Bill

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