Battery warranty question

From what I hear, the battery in the Prius is warranted for 10 years by Toyota.

That seems a bit much. I'm old enough to remember J.C. Penney's had a lifetime battery (free replacement) as did Firestone (I think it was them). I also had a Ford/Mercury that had a "We fix it once and you never pay to have that part fixed again warranty." Well, Ford did away with that in short order too (I had one so I know). It was even in their owner's manual for the '86 era cars.

Around here in the heat, my car's batteries only last maybe 2 years before they are gone. Doesn't matter how many months it is warranted for, they just pro-rate it and you basically buy another battery.

I'm suspicious if I consider buying a Prius that Toyota will somehow weasel out of the battery warranty or perhaps pro-rate it as some exorbitant amount. Seems to good to be true if the battery is indeed thousands of dollars of the cost of the car.

Anyone have or read the fine print of the battery warranty to see what it actually says?

B~

Reply to
B. Peg
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It's eight years or 100,000 miles (longer in California, I think 10 years or 150,000 miles) on the *traction* battery, the big 201.6 Volt nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) battery which is part of the drive system. After seven years and some 150,000 cars sold I can find no report that Toyota has been asked to replace any of these batteries under warranty. They really seem not to have failed yet.

The 12V battery used for booting the car when you press start is a small but otherwise ordinary lead-acid battery which is covered under the comprehensive 3 year warranty. After the warranty on mine runs out I plan to replace it with an Optima or equivalent long-life battery.

Reply to
richard schumacher

The hybrid traction battery is covered for 8 years or 100,000 miles in the US under the Hybrid Vehicle System warranty. If you're in one of the California emissions states (CA, MA, ME, VT, NY) the hybrid battery is further covered by the California Emission Control Warranty out to 10 years or 150,000 miles (for 2004-2005 Prius, anyways).

The regular 12v lead-acid accessory battery in the Prius (which is the same as in your regular cars, except maybe smaller in size) is not so certain. Some people have it covered under the basic new vehicle limited warranty (3 years/36,000 miles in the US), while some dealers see it as one of those expendable items (like tires, light bulbs, and wiper blades) and won't cover it if you abuse it (let it run flat). If you're tough on your 12v battery (have a bad habit of leaving lights on in your car when it's off, for example), you might have to replace it sooner, and that would be a perfect time for you to take advantage of any "lifetime" offers that you quoted at other auto parts stores.

Reply to
Michelle Vadeboncoeur

Michelle covers the warranty question very thoroughly and accurately.

Recently I visited with my bro-in-law, who trains estimators for State Farm, Ins., about this battery. Apparently they are quite spendy (he estimated, off the cuff, somewhere around $4,000.00 to $4,500.00) but said that there had been so few replaced because of accidents that he really didn't know for sure. He hadn't personally worked on an estimate but was just relaying what he'd heard from others in his office (rumors, essentially).

He did tell me this though and it may be of interest.

Tow truck drivers are supposed to have training for handling the Prius in case of an accident - or at least State Farm wishes that they had training.

The battery is apparently pretty potent. He told one story he'd heard from his boss about a Prius that was rear-ended and the battery case was cracked during the accident. Apparently it leaked on the tow truck and ate a hole through the truck bed as well as a hole in the concrete roadway under the truck.

So, if that's true, I'm sure State Farm (et.al.) will see the handwriting on the wall and insurance costs will increase eventually. It gets pretty expensive repairing highway surfaces and tow truck beds... ;-)

Larry Morphew

1955 Studebaker Commander 2004 Toyota Prius
Reply to
Larry Morphew

My question about the battery (hybrid concept) is has anyone factored in the cost of a new battery after the first goes bad (say in 8-10 years), it would seem to add more than $400 a year to the cost of running the car! So shouldn't the mpg reflect that replacement cost and won't that equalize the "real" cost per mile with old technology?

Ben

Reply to
Ben

The battery is about as expensive as an automatic transmission, and is more reliable than many auto trannies. It certainly has a longer warranty than most auto transmissions. Since the Prius has no actual transmission, I figure it is at worst a wash. No starter, no alternator or power steering pump... we're starting to come out ahead already. No cruise control system to go bad (well, okay, there are some switches). Not even a timing belt to be changed.

Since there is a Honda, an Acura and a Volvo in the family, I frequent those groups. Absolutely amazing how many automatic transmission horror stories there, including a '99 Acura TL on its 4th transmission (they have a very bad record.) Honda transmissions can be destroyed by using non-Honda fluid or by routinely shifting into drive without coming to a complete stop while backing up. The '93 and '94 Volvo 850 had nearly 100% transmission failure in the first five years of service. How many "bad traction battery" posts have you seen here? Granted the Prius is a relatively new model, but it is doing remarkably well.

The battery will probably fail at some point. But count the number of systems in any modern car that can cost more to repair or replace than the car is worth after 10 years. ABS controllers, SRS bag sets, engine, transmission. A co-worker had a Ford Escort until the water pump shaft failed just after the warranty period ran out. The timing belt let go (it drove the water pump) and crashed the engine. The car was uneconomical to repair, although he owed nearly two more years payments on it. I think the Prius is a good gamble by comparison.

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

We aren't talking reliability here, my Toyota 2004 Camry LE 5 speed should prove as reliable as the Prius I will assume. My assertion is that the battery should be depreciated as its being USED UP, lowering the value of the used car as it needs replacement and that replacement should be part of your fuel mileage calculations.

That said and saying the battery lasts 10 years (2 years past its warranty) and needs to be replaced, for a cost of $4000 (now who would put $4000 into a ten year old car? So what is the car worth with a now dead battery?) So the real cost may include the throwaway of your ten year old car! But say you replace the battery, that adds $400 per year to your fuel bottom line.

My Camry gets 30 mpg (AC off), given a 15k year and $2 gas, that is $1000 per year, say the Prius gets 50 mpg (I travel at 75-80 so I don't think it will give that kind of mileage), then it costs $600 in gas and then add the $400 per year battery cost and its a wash. Except I paid $17000 out the door for my Camry, I was offered a $21,850 Prius, at that time for $28,500!

My choice in a high mileage vehicle will be the Honda Accord diesel when it arrives, with biodiesel it will be an excellent long lived alternative.

Just my spin, Ben

Reply to
Ben

I did the math, Ben, and you are correct. There were two other factors that, for me, were overriding considerations:

  1. I will be consuming less fuel. Sometime during 2005 global consumption will exceed global production, IMO. From that time forward the price of gasoline will increase dramatically if the economies of India and China continue to grow at their present rate. For my part, I will be using less of a resource that can't be replenished.
  2. The Prius has exceptional emission characteristics.

Bill

Reply to
Bill

Hello,

Thanks for your reply, I feel the differences in emissions are not great enough to justify the $11,000 difference. Also the costs in fuel to create and destroy these batteries will consume any savings. Also what is a car that needs a new battery worth?

The price of fuel will go up. Burning hydrocarbons uses up Oxygen. I wrote a paper in 1986 showing that gas, oil, coal and the oxygen in the atmosphere, were created from the same exact reaction, photosynthesis. So when you burn hydrocarbon fuels you are using up our reservoir of oxygen, from 22.1% before 1965 to under 21% today (probably closer to 20%). We have used about

10% of the available oxygen, meaning we have used 10% of all hydrocarbon fuels. My webpage describes it a little more fully
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We need to create the oxygen as well as thefuel. That is why I have I high hopes for biodiesel. It only takes 7 lbs. ofsoybeans (you can use corn, hemp any bio-oil) to make a gallon of biodieseland of course you also made the oxygen it will burn. Biodiesel has betterlubricity, zero sulfur, and no soot compared to hydrocarbon diesel. Maybe a hybrid using a diesel to recharge the battery is a better way to go. I believe the real costs associated with hybrid concept should be out in the open so decisions can be made.

Ben

consumption

Reply to
Ben

Ben, we in the U. S. are presently burning 336 million gallons of gasoline per day. Replacing that with biodiesel would consume 2.3 billion pounds of corn per day. We are currently producing 10 billion bushels of corn per year, most of which is processed for other uses.

The long-term consequences of switching to biodiesel could be severe. Just imagine how much acreage would be required to grow enough corn, how much fertilizer would be needed, and how this would impact our food supply.

In my opinion, the answer is electricity generated by the sun or wind.

Bill

Reply to
Bill

Wind and sun are definitely preferable. I believe that biodiesel is the alternative to hydrocarbon fuels, and is available IMMEDIATELY. I haven't seen any wind or solar powered tractor-trailers on the drawing boards even.

Rudolf Diesel when he designed the diesel had hopes to use Eastern Europe to grow the fuel. And growing the fuel IS using the Sun.

Ben

Reply to
Ben

I disagree entirely. The battery pack has no target life span; it is not designed to be "used up". If the car reaches the end of its useful life because the interior is shot (as is the case on my present Volvo), amortizing the battery cost over the life of the car is pointless. One battery has lasted over 200K miles, so it is unreasonable to assume the average owner will ever replace a traction battery. In that sense, it is more durable than clutches or brakes or bushings or shocks (which are spent), and is roughly as durable as a modern engine. Those durable parts depreciate, contributing to the total depreciation of the automobile.

Cars are junked when *something* is not worth repairing. You could use your argument with all vital parts in any car, and add up to very many times the value of the car. But in actuality, it is only the specific "straw that breaks the camel's back" that matters. With my old '70 Mercury Capri it was the driveshaft; with our '84 Dodge 600 it was the timing chain; my '84 300ZX was buried in electrical intermittents; after more than 300K miles my '70 Volvo 145 wasn't worth a new water pump. Most owner's manuals call for all air bags to be replaced in 10 or 15 years - at that point it wouldn't matter what condition the battery was in. My message is: don't worry about the battery - there are things far more worth worrying about in any car.

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

Not really worried just looking for an accurate evaluation of this new technology. Me I do depreciate the running gear to help determine if I am paying a reasonable price for a car. I know I will depreciate the cost to replace the battery should I buy a used hybrid. I don't know the design of the battery but I do know that until now there hasn't been a battery that would last indefinitely. I would say a dead battery in a Prius would be the straw that breaks this cars back. Along with all the normal things to end a cars life. I wish all luck with their hybrids, I just haven't been sold yet.

Ben

Reply to
Ben

Why replace the entire battery pack with a new one? Why not just replace the individual bad cells? Why not get a used battery pack from a junkyard (wrecked vehicle)? Most used 2001-2003 Prius battery packs tend to sell in the $700 range.

Or, you could live in a CA emissions state like I do (MA). Warranty on the 2004 and newer Prius' hybrid battery pack is extended to

10 years/150,000 miles, instead of the federal warranty of 8 years/100,000 miles. ;-)
Reply to
Michelle Vadeboncoeur

I don't think there is a real price to "replace" the battery. Yes, you may find costs, but my understanding is that the battery is modular, and only the bad modules need to be replaced. Since you don't necessarily replace an entire battery, the cost would depend on how many modules get replaced.

Reply to
Joker

Toyota has stated the battery is designed to last the life of the car (leading some to wonder wryly if that means the same as your heart being designed to last the life of your body!) The hybrid system keeps very tight reins on the state of charge and charge/discharge rates to maximize battery life. My take on the warranty is that if they are expecting only 10 years life, an 8 year warranty would cost them a fortune in battery replacements from those early failures. A 15 year life expectancy is probably more realistic. For that reason, my personal guess is that Prius will probably show up in wrecking yards for the usual sorts of reasons, and many of them will have usable battery packs to keep others going for affordable prices. That is the situation now.

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

Thanks for all the excellent input. I think this thread is at and end.

Ben

Reply to
Ben

Ten years from now the battery will not cost $4000. I'll guess $1000.

Reply to
richard schumacher

We are working on the assumption that the batteries will HAVE to fail. There are no moving parts in the battery system. Lead-acid batteries have an infinite charge / discharge cycle life, especially with computer control of the process. If a company warantees an item for 10 years / 100000 miles (12 years / 120000 in CA Emission states) then it is safe to say the useful life is at least twice that. As mentioned in other posts on this thread, there will be other things that will fail much sooner, and most people don't drive vehicles into the ground. Car manufacturers count on replacement cycles of

40 months or less, so for the vast majority of owners this wouldn't even be an issue.

Kevin

Reply to
Kevin Kirkeby

Breaks should last forever too.

Reply to
RZ

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