A useful note from www.saab9000.com re servicing - other Saab model owners may wish to consider too

What is 'dangerously long' and 'ludicrously short'?

What is 'frequently'?

What is 'frequently' and 'infrequently'? Please supply some numbers.

Thank you.

Many SAAB owners in the US, myself included, use fully synthetic oil. I do at 10k mile interval.

The argument for long oil change intervals wasn't helped much in recent years as some manufacturers, including Saab, who had specified long oil change intervals, ran into sludge problems in some engines. Those who had been changing their oil frequently did not have these problems. Others, who were doing your (and the mfr's) recommended long oil change cycle didn't fair as well and many have had to have their engines replaced.

As a note, at least Saab recently came out and admitted a design flaw which allowed for this happen.

As a general rule, synthetic oils will allow for longer intervals vs their non-synthetic cousins. Few will argue this point. The debate really is on precisely _how much longer_. 1000 miles? 10000 miles? More likely, somewhere in between. And of course, driving habits will affect this greatly. If the car mostly does short jaunts of less than 15-20 miles, than this will certainly affect the equation. Perhaps this is why the American market is more geared toward shorter oil change intervals (not to mention its market bias toward natural vs synthetic oil), as Americans may be more apt to use their cars even to drive just a few blocks down the street.

- tex

Likewise or maybe at shorter intervals if the car happens to be in the 'shop'.

Graham

Perceptions of 'frequently' and 'infrequently' with regard to oil change intervals differ from the US to Europe. That was what the article was intended to draw attention to.

Europeans are quite used to 12k miles ( probably longer now ) service intervals for example and wouldn't think of an intermediate oil change. Synthetic oil makes this quite safe normally, although the recently admitted engine breather problems with certain more recent Saab models is unfortunate.

Graham

Turns out to be a design error - now admitted as I gather.

Right. In effect, it wasn't the recommended oil change interval in itself that was flawed.

I've generally taken full synthetic oil to be good for at least twice as long as standard mineral oil. Semi-synth somewhere inbetween. Of course, then you're still into the 'how long should that be' issue again.

Very true. Indeed climate also likely plays a part too.

I do try to avoid that. Some short journeys are unavoidable though. As I understand it though, a lot of this is to do with absorbed H20 into the oil. If the engine gets a decent run, this should be subsequently 'boiled out'.

Graham

I've been thinking about this thread...I actually don't think it's really a cultural question (as in US vs Europe), even though it may appear that way on the surface. These days, car owners, generally speaking, do what their manufacturer (or dealer) recommends for basic maintenance. If the manufacturer says 5k mile oil changes, then that's what the owner does. If

12k mile oil changes are recommended, then that's what the owner does.

If there's any questions to be had, it's with the manufacturers. Why do US auto manufacturers continue to recommend mineral over synthetic motor oils? Or is just a mtter of time before they start to recommend synthetics?

- tex

Indeed. That's what the warranty requires and no-one is going to quibble about that.

Yes. You got it to a tee. I do recall when servicing intervals were around 6k miles. No longer however. Not only have mineral oil formulations improved but synthetics blow them away !

A *very good question* ! I didn't even realise that was still the case. If you have ( especially ) a premium vehicle - you're simply wearing away your cylinders, rings and pistons faster by not using a synth oil.

Does the US auto industry care ?

Funny really, since Mobil 1 appears to be accepted as the best lubricant around !

Graham

Of course, but it's all market driven...if consumers recognize the value of synthetics, then yes, they'll change.

As of right now, the mineral based oils are competing as best they can with synthetics by changing their additive formulations which add little to the actual cost. Given the additives typically only make up about 15-20% of mineral based oils, it's surprising how well they can compete vs their synthetic cousins.

I checked around, Ford does list their oil change recommendations:

3k or 5k miles oil changes.

They seem to also indicate their oil undergoes some "surgery" to combat mineral oil's greatest shortcoming...it's molecular structure. From what I've read, synthetics, don't have this problem to begin with, as their molecules are much more uniform in size and structure.

I checked local Dodge and Chevrolet dealer websites who also indicated 3k mile oil change intervals (presumably mostly with mineral-oils).

Maybe Mobil 1's sales team really needs to get cracking on US auto manufacturers!

- tex

Are things really that bad in the US?

WTF is that supposed to mean, Carl? Yes, people have opinions about oil, but what's that got to do with a particular country in general?

Yeah, Carl, it's so bad here that we can get what amounts to be the best synthetic oil available for about $16 per gallon. Things suck here...

... when except compared to everywhere else. ;-)

-Fred W

There are a number of factors at work here.

For one, the US oil specification is controlled by the oil industry - API. In Europe, the oil specification is controlled the the auto manufactures - ACEA. The American Petroleum Institute (API) sets the service level with some input from the vehicle manufacturers. In Europe the vehicle manufacturers, ACEA (European Automobile Manufacturers' Association) set the service level.

Secondly, the API has specified one lowest common denominator service specification, e.g. API SM for all gasoline engines. Although the vehicle manufacturers are pushing for higher standards, they are constrained by the oil industry. Thus, they try create their own specifications and even created their own association - ILSAC - to promote their cause.

Next, in Europe, the ACEA has created quality tiers, e.g. A1, A3, A4, A5 for gasoline engines. These tiers increase in quality starting from A1 and ending in A5. Even the lowest quality level, A1, is formulated with mostly Group III synthetics and has a drain interval of 12,000 miles. A5 oils are Group III or IV synthetics and have a drain interval of up to

20,000 miles. Since the vehicle manufacturers own the specifications, they naturally specify as high a quality as is feasible for their engines.

Finally, but less a factor, many highways in Europe have no speed limit so engines (which are smaller on average than in the US) are run at a higher speed for longer periods of time and correspondingly operate under higher stress. This calls for higher quality oil.

There are a few more issues at play, but that's the gist of it.

Mario

-- EngineOilSelector.com