ABS pedal feel?

I read that Sube and many other co's use a dual stage vacuum booster, that causes the spongy feel, and flex brake lines that expand. Found a single stage booster, but the master cyl has to be replaced also, in newer Sube's.

VF

I put the Soob stainless braided lines on my WRX and did not notice any improvement whatsoever. I have been told it WOULD have been noticeable 3 years down the line when the rubber was old. Better tires will also increase 'normal' brake 'feel' somewhat. The ABS will kick in later if you have good rubber on the road. Brakes stop rotation - tires stop cars.

Carl

Hi, Also there is a kit to reinforce firewall behind master cylinder.

I had read about the stainless brake lines, but thought they would only be needed, when Really getting on the Stop pedal. Going to have to see if pulling the ABS fuses makes any difference. Doesn't seem like it would, but I'm taking Subaru 101.))

Do many people have the same feeling about the brakes?

VF

Can the firewall be flexing That much?

VF

Back in the 60's I ordered a car with over sized brakes without power assist, because the assist made them too sensitive, and I wanted a nice feel. That was back in the drum brake days. Ordered it without a radio also, and the dealer called to double check. Also wanted to make sure that I wanted black on a 69" Charger. When I had told the salesmen I wanted to order a car, they said, they might have one in stock. When I told them I wanted black with a black vinyl roof, they said, You'll have to order that. When the movie Bullitt came out, everyone thought I had seen the movie.

VF

Yes, its not uncommon, and this affects the brake feel because the flex takes up some pedal movement. One reason for the spongy brake pedal is the design decision to provide a certain amount of progressiveness for the average (== semi-competent) driver. The smaller the master cyl diameter, the further it has to be pushed to move the calipers/shoes. So the pedal travel is large. Put in a larger diameter cyl and the travel is reduced, but the progressiveness is reduced. Many drivers don't like and often can't handle this. Others (like many reders of this NG) do like it and can handle it.

SD

Interesting... I may have to make More changes than I imagined, and I imagined a lot. That's the curse of My Way.))

VF

You ask if others feel the same way about ABS. No, I don't. To me, ABS is a way to stop in the minimum distance possible at my speed, weight and tires. It is a panic move! So I don't care how it feels, looks, or sounds; I just want to stop!

The feeling of the vibrating brakes is something new, but when I am desperate to stop, I just don't care!

Ben

Most of what I read, ABS takes longer to stop, but the Only advantage is being able to steer while braking, but rollovers are 50% higher, because if being able to steer, to avoid an accident, a tire gets into dirt, it can dig in and the vehicle is more likely to flip. I'd rather have Shorter braking distances, and Me avoiding contact.

My initial desire Was, to be able to Lock the brakes if I wanted to, which a working ABS doesn't allow. Then reading about longer stopping distances, I feel I want it it even less. I Would like to have it on the rear brakes, since I had a Bad experience with rear wheels locking up in a FWD car, before they learned about Fr/Rr proportioning, and the rear locked up. I kept the car from spinning, but slid across the opposite lane, and shoulder, and down a grass embankment, stopping 2' from a 2' dia tree right next to me. I wasn't trying to avoid hitting anything but an oncoming truck, that popped up, when trying to pass a guy in a Camaro who wanted to race. Hitting the brakes lightly to slow down, and turning the wheel to get back in the lane, was too much for the vehicle.

I have taken risks over the years, but I was aware of them and they were of my choosing, and I knew what the dangers were, so anticipated them.

VF

That's not correct.

The goal of ABS is not to stop the car in less distance, but to allow control as it stops.

Once a wheel locks, it has little traction. An anti-lock brake allows you to steer while you stop, but may take more distance to stop you. In other words, you can now steer around what you were going to hit, or in the worst case, hit it straight on. Without ABS, you might get sideways, which allows less occupant protection, eliminates any chance of missing the obstruction, and can possibly roll the car over.

I'd rather have more options than ABS gives, except maybe on the rear wheels. I don't think it would have helped much on a glare ice down hill off ramp from an interstate, with a car sideways at the bottom. Reg brakes didn't help either, and steering was almost useless, but inching over to ice crystals worked.

Sometimes being Able to stop isn't good. I was pretty proud of myself when young, stopping for a light on a icy downhill street. Then I heard a horn and got rear ended. Saw cars that hit each other pulled over. The street wasn't a through street but a T, so the accidents were probably all or mostly rear enders. After sliding through a red light at an intersection, on an icy downhill street at 3AM, the next day I was in a parking lot practicing skidding, and did for a few yrs after, and taught or told anyone I taught how to drive, or was leaning, to do that the first snow. Now I just do it before I get to intersections, or on a street or road I question. I see what it takes to lock the wheels, so I can adjust distances, and be prepared. On the main street here in the city, parking is allowed in the center, and people make U turns at open spaces. Had a nice one a few weeks ago, at nite, in the rain, and a kid poked out from behind a van, not far ahead, and there was a car next to me and behind, so no place to go. That's when I like tires with good wet weather traction. Learned about them when 17, and the new tires didn't have much.

The 4X4 off road guys don't seem to like ABS at all, and some mfg's make it switchable, and owners of the ones that don't, want to at least put in a switch, or pull the fuses.

VF

I understood ABS will prevent the loss of traction which results in a skid, especially on a wet road, and when the wheels lose traction the stopping distance would be longer and uncontrolled.

You got it half right.

Skidding wheels may or may not take longer to stop. It depends on the surface.

I've heard it described as a tire under maximum stress can stop, turn or drive, one at a time. Skidding wheels can't turn. 'nuff said.

I believe when a tire looses traction, like hydroplaning in the wet, not much will stop it until the speed drops and the tires start to grab. Knowing the limits of the tires would help avoid accidents. I have a FWD car with A traction rated tires, and I don't like how it grips in the rain, so I am cautious.

VF

messagenews: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Would skidding be called, locked wheels on dirt snow or gravel, where the plowing effect is said to help stopping over ABS, and is turning the wheel turning on the axle, or steering?

I have read that ABS doesn't stop shorter even on glare ice. It seems like there are many situations where one thing doesn't work for all situations, and the Strange things that I have heard that ABS can do, like releasing when a tire looses contact with the road, because the wheel stopped spinning, and not braking again, till the pedal is released and reapplied, or a friend telling me the pedal kicked back, and knocked his foot off the pedal, makes me leery of the technology.

VF

I believe when a tire looses traction, like hydroplaning in the wet, not much will stop it until the speed drops and the tires start to grab. Knowing the limits of the tires would help avoid accidents. I have a FWD car with A traction rated tires, and I don't like how it grips in the rain, so I am cautious.

VF

messagenews: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

ABS can be calibrated at manufacture to be optimal for dirt/gravel performance; it's set to a tighter tolerance so that a wheel can push up a mound of gravel and this aids braking performance. This aspect of braking is what experienced dirt drivers miss when moving to std ABS.

(My Forester btw has EBD which is ABS per wheel which helps further.)

As for braided steel lines, they really only pay for themselves with hard consistent braking, as in racing or rallying. Rubber lines heat up under these conditions and become relatively spongy.