Forrester head gasket

hi we have a 2002 forrester in australia and it appears to have just blown a head gasket. it should be under warranty but they may argue about the service repair history which has been consistent, just not every 12500kms like they suggest (given that it costs hundreds of dollars to do a minor service at my dealer...but thats a whole other issue). i read that there is a known head gasket problem with forresters in the US, to the extent of subaru recognising the issue but not willing to do anything other than on a case by case basis. does anyone in australia have similar experience with head gasket problems, ie, is it a known issue here? thanks kylie.

Reply to
kms12
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Hi Kylie

It would help if you could advise did you purchase the vehicle new?

If not when and where did you buy it, Did you have it inspected ?

How many kilometres have you done and has the warranty expired?

Has it been serviced per the log book? My experience with Subaru Australia has been first class so I'm surprised by what you have written.

Have they written to you declining to repair your car and the reasons why?

Have you had an inspection by the NRMA/RACV etc confirming there is a problem?

I await your response.

cheers

kms12 wrote:

Reply to
Tony Burns (permanent dismisse

hi tony we did buy the car direct from a dealer, it had been their demo car and had 5000k on it, so we got an extended warranty, but it was new. i am hoping that subaru australia will allow the work to be done under warranty, but the new dealer/service centre i took it to yesterday thought they might be less than happy with the not-perfect service history (it has missed 3). it has done a lot of kms, i will say that,

140000 but it is over 3 years old now so i dont know if thats unusual. the mechanic at the dealership here in the ACT (we bought the car in NSW) was very nice and had a look at the car, which i had serviced at ultratune and they advised that there was a leak over the realr left hand cylinder. the mechanic at the dealership feels this is a gasket issue, and he has contacted subaru to see if they will do it under warranty. he doesnt feel that there was anything we could have done to prevent it, so i am hoping that subaru will be reasonable. i was very impressed with the dealership i went to the other day but have had a terrible experience with the place where we bought the car in wollongong nsw and was very hesitant to take it to another dealership for servicing when we moved interstate, but now i am going to go there all the time.

otherwise its been a brilliant car, not a single problem really until this. i am just trying to gather as much info as i can incase subaru give us a hard time about missing 3 services. perhaps i dont need to worry!

do you know how likely it is that a leak is really a blown head gasket? the car has never overheated and has only ever needed coolant added once by us, and then it was just a top up. there is never anything on the ground under the car, so even tho the new dealership was very nice, i have been so burnt by mechanics i am not sure who to trust. if they tell me its a blown head gasket and subaru wont pay then we're out of pocket $1500. who do you trust when theres money involved?!!

thanks for responding anyway tony. cheers kylie

Reply to
kms12

Is the extended warranty a Subaru one and not one of those fake extra one that dealers give away for nothing? (and are worth nothing).

My view of Ultratune is less than perfect, their mechanics aren't generally Subaru trained and have usually worked at a Holden or Ford workshop. Anything they diagnose would need a second opinion from a Subaru dealer and a Subaru representative.

In regards to the missed services, some of these are minor and a couple are MAJOR, E.G. 50000 kms, 75000 kms 100000kms. If these aren't done in accordance to the Service schedule you may have a problem. I've found Subaru to be more than reasonable in the past.

My suggestion is that if it is a genuine Subaru warrantee, your Subaru dealer will be able to confirm this with Subaru Australia through the VIN code, you should negotiate for the repair (if one is needed) to be covered. If it is another company's warrantee then you may be in trouble.

Until you start talking to Subaru you really can't do anything.

HTH

kms12 wrote:

Reply to
Tony Burns (permanent dismisse

thanks very much for this, thankfully the services missed are all minor, we were very diligent about the majors, esp the 50 and 100k. its a genuine subaru warranty till 2007 but because of the car being a demo model, we didnt pay anything for it. its got a genuine subaru extended warranty card, so in that case, given what you say, perhaps we will be ok.

i wasnt happy with this ultratune, they did the 137500k service for $306 and the subaru guy told me it would have cost 175 there! but i definately got the impression that it was a very cursory service and i wont be convinced its a blown gasket until the subaru mechanic definately says so.

he did put it up on the hoist the other day and said he could see the leak from underneath but i guess they dont want to touch it till they get the go ahead from subaru. the guy at subaru here said he would negotiate with subaru on my behalf, so i imagine we will hear something after easter. i think the difference between the dealership here and the one in wollongong is the one in wollongong is a franchise whereas this one in the act is not, they just do subaru and nothing else, so i feel better taking it there. they were rather amused that i had been charged $12.50 for water replacement in the washer bottle at my previous dealer, and not just once but TWICE, after i had gone off my head about it the first time!!

it eases my mind to know you have found subaru themselves to be reasonable, i was reading horror stories about them in the US where they have had hundreds of blown head gaskets in young cars and are contemplating a class action! they say this is because their cars are assembled in north america, but i take it ours come direct from fuji heavy industries in japan. apparently they are much more reliable if made there?

anyway thanks for your help tony, appreciate it! the car is still going great, there is no evidence of anything being wrong in the driving, handling, indicators etc, so we will see what happens.

have a good easter! kylie.

Reply to
kms12

Reply to
Tony Burns (permanent dismisse

Kylie - There are two distinct gasket failurea that are common, on two different 2.5L engines. You need to know which one you have.

If the failure is visible from outside the engine, I'm assuming that it's the SOHC (single overhead cam) engine, not the DOHC like our '99 Liberty RX. The failure with the SOHC engine generally causes the coolant to leak to the outside of the engine. The main problem with that is you run short on coolant and get air in it, which allows hot spots to develop in the engine, which can eventually cause seizure. This problem gets treated by Subaru, in the USA at least, with some magic goo in the coolant that clogs up the holes... and probably other things. No-one's very happy about that "fix", but that's whats on offer, hence the threat of a class action.

The DOHC failure allows hot exhaust gas into the coolant so it spills out through the overflow bottle and you get the same end result. But you'll know this one, because when the engine is running, you'll get continuous bubbling coming out of the overflow reservoir (where you fill the coolant). This is what happened to ours at 130,000Km. Actually it happened 10,000Km after the 120,000 service, because the shop didn't refill it correctly. It can occur at *any* mileage if the coolant hasn't been correctly filled *even once*, and most such engines last no more than 140,000 before it happens. It's the fault of the service shop, because they don't know/don't bother learning to compensate for what is actually a serious (though fairly common) design flaw in the engines. Generally it won't happen if you use Subaru manufacturer service, but who can afford to pay $AU110/hour for service? Absolutely outrageous, that's double the rate for a top mechanic, four times an apprentice's. I won't go there again, but I have found a new service place who I grilled thoroughly to ensure they truly are expert with Subarus and know I expect that, never an apprentice.

The proper fix for both problems is a new gasket, which will cost you around $AU2500, if our experience of last July at Bright is anything to go by. :-(. No point trying to get the service place to pay it, you'd never prove it. Just vote with your feet.

Best of luck,

Clifford Heath (in Melbourne).

Reply to
Clifford Heath

Your problem Heath is you're "assuming". At this stage no head gasket issue has been identified and the issue is up for discussion with Subaru Australia.

Your unhappiness is clouding Kyle's issue unnecessarily.

Clifford Heath wrote:

Reply to
Tony Burns (permanent dismisse

Reply to
Tony Burns (permanent dismisse

Well, yes, I suppose I should have said "you need to know whether you have one of them". It could be something else. In fact the symptoms don't necessarily sound like a HG. That's why I tried to describe the symptoms of the two common failures, since *she* raised the issue of class actions - not me.

As for unhappiness, well, the Liberty is the nicest car I've owned (though not the most fun - that's my '69 Alfa :-). I'm not unhappy with it. There are several service places I'm obviously unhappy with. That includes Subaru Aust, but only because of their inflated labour prices - the staff are very professional. I'm not spiteful, so I didn't mention other names, but it's as well that Kylie knows the likely results of using incompetent service folk.

I guess we disagree on that one.

Reply to
Clifford Heath

thanks for this info....what is really interesting is that the problem we have doesnt sound like either of the scenarios you describe. in fact we dont even have a problem that i can see, hear or feel. i have mechanics telling me there are signs of leaks, but as tony said no one will know until a proper inspection of the alleged head gasket is done.

i just get sick of feeling like im being ripped off at every turn. i dont like going to ultratune, i just know its not the same as a subaru trained mechanic, and then i think subaru are so goddamn precious about everything that goes NEAR the car, is all of that completely warranted?

and my experience with one subaru dealer's service prices was appalling. i am hoping that the new one is not so bad but if anyone knows a good subaru mechanic in the ACT they trust i'd be grateful!

thanks for the help - all info is good info.

cheers kylie.

Reply to
kms12

You're welcome. Best of luck getting it fixed, and in finding a mechanic you trust.

It definitely would have been in my case, but only because the place I did go to falsely claimed to be Subaru specialists.

Reply to
Clifford Heath

Subaru definitely have head gasket troubles on their 2.5 l SOHC engines, and they have known it for a long time. Here in Canada there is a recall on record which the dealers have kept quiet, choosing rather to add a chemical 'Rad Stop-Leak' type substance when the vehicles come in for regular service. Obviously that is an attempt to get the gaskets past the warranty period without it costing them any real money.

Ours went at just over 65,000 km, and the dealer kept telling me the antifreeze on the snow was a result of overfilling. When I persisted they finally examined it more closely and agreed to do the gaskets under warranty. They claimed the heads were magnafluxed and skimmed .010" to ensure they were flat before going back down.

Within a month after the job the engine was making a noise like a couple of the pistons were fighting to get out. Took it to another dealership, they had a Suby Canada rep listen to it and they agreed that coolant must have leaked inside the bores during the 6 or 8 weeks in which the first dealer kept trying to fob me off. Apparently the very short modern pistons are coated in molybdenum disulphide or something similar, and the antifreeze can attack that coating.

Suby replaced my complete shortblock, that is, everything south of the heads, under warranty and again claimed they'd had the heads milled another .010" to ensure they were flat. One month after the one year warranty on the repairs had expired the damned things started leaking again. By this time all warranty was over on the car, so I took it to the chap who services our other two cars. He has had a fair bit of experience with Subies and this gasket problem, and tells me the stock gaskets are made from the Dead Seas Scrolls, or at least their price would suggest that. They also fail with alarming regularity. He replaced the gaskets with aftermarket type and they sealed up fine and haven't given any trouble since.

Interestingly, I warned him the heads had already been skimmed .020" and suggested he mike them to make sure any further head milling wouldn't hit water . He did that and discovered that both Suby dealerships had been lying through their teeth; the heads were stock thickness. The only evidence of 'machining' was scratches left in the alloy where some idiot had scrubbed away the remains of the old gaskets with a bit of 80-grit, freehand.

I love driving our Forester, but wouldn't buy another Suby until they have polygraphs installed in their service depts. Incidentally, since the job was done by my local garage the car runs better than it has since we bought it. The job was just over half the price quoted by the dealership.

Reply to
Kevin Hall

hi kevin your post made me laugh out loud. what a bunch of scheisters mechanics are and they wonder why we get pissed?! good ones excepted of course (could they please stand up so we can all take note?)...

as an update, i have spoken to the dealer here and he has spoken to subaru who have agreed to pay for the parts if we will pay for the labour. i am guessing for a head gasket job the labour is kind of expensive! my husband is going to take over negotiations in that dept now. i hate to be stereotypical about these things but they really do treat you like youre an idiot if you have two x chromosones. the dealer was very nice to me and it was good of him to talk to subaru on my behalf but im sure its all to their mutual benefit. i told him that i was going to get my husband to come in and talk to him because as yet we have no verifiable evidence of it being a head gasket and if we agree to pay for a heap of labour that requires engine parts being pulled out etc only to find that no parts need replacing, well we wont be happy!! he got a little testy when i told him this, ie "i was only trying to help, it would normally cost such and such" etc etc. i am doing a phd (ok so its not in mechanical engineering!) and am not an idiot. i know that labour is usually the most expensive part. he said well yes get a second opinion if you want, and i said its not that, its just that we dont know for sure that thats what it is and i dont want to agree to anything until i know exactly what were agreeing to!

so i am going to take tonys advice and get the NRMA (national motor club thingy) of which we are members to do an inspection and then take negotiations from there. meanwhile car still running like a dream. no antifreeze on my snow!

thanks again kylie.

Reply to
kms12

Stand your ground Kylie! Make sure you show your documentation to the NRMA, Subaru will come good if you're right.

Good luck.

kms12 wrote:

Reply to
Tony Burns (permanent dismisse

thanks tony nrma found evidence of coolant leak and oil buildup and suggested we get it looked at. we have booked it in at the dealership service centre agreeing to pay for labour while subaru pay for parts at this stage, tho my husband is going to get on the phone to subaru as we do expect them to pay for the lot. they reckon about $600 worth of labour which i am happy to pay for the cars sake and then fight with subaru later if need be!

thanks for your help cheers kylie

Reply to
kms12

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