Hybrid Subaru engine?

What on earth are you talking about? Hybrid cars don't require charging. They run on gasoline. Are you thinking of electric cars?

Correct. A car that gets 50mpg generally produces less pollution than one that gets 30mpg.

Cool.

-DanD

The 2004 Toyota Prius (Motor Trend's car of the year) has an MSRP of $20,510 and you should get a tax rebate from the feds and possibly your state of $3k or more. If you can't afford that, you probably aren't shopping for a new car. It qualifies as mid-size rather than compact. It's quite comfortable (opinions vary) and offers features like Bluetooth and the ability to disarm the alarm, lock the door, and start the car without having to take your keys out of your pocket. If you get the optional voice-activated DVD navigation system, it will even parallel park itself for you. (Does that meet your standard of convenience?)

Well, let's see... the hybrid components have an 8yr/100,000mile warranty, and that includes the batteries. The rest of the powertrain has a

5yr/60,000mile warranty. The rest of the car has a 3yr/36,000mile warranty. (I'm sure they'd be happy to sell you an extended warranty)

-DanD

Addressing the comfort and convenience factor, probably not. I've driven "mid-size cars" that have less room than my Forester. As you so accurately noted, "opinions vary".

I'll pass on the "parallel park itself" comment. Even the Queen Mary or a Boeing 777 can't do that.

Dan, your reply struck me as very "Madison Avenue." It leaves a lot unsaid. In my experience, leaving things unsaid usually means the answer does not support the desired conclusion. :-)

You appear to be suggesting that for a mere $20,510, I can get all that I could possibly desire.

Why do I doubt that? Well, when you reach a certain age, you've probably heard many sales pitches and you simply learn to pass up on some offers that sound too good to be true. At least, I have.

What WOULD the cost of a fully-equipped car be? Didn't see that.

In my earlier post, I wondered about the cost of replacing one of the large NiMH batteries. But I did not see any figure on the cost of a replacement battery,either. These cars DO require a large capacity battery, or do they?

In fact, there is so much to try to extract from the current fervor to pitch hybrids that I suspect it will be wise for anyone to simply wait for an experience factor that better suggest the total cost and whether the car will keep its promises.

Too, I just bought an '04 XS Forester and am quite pleased. It was a tad over $20K, but I believe I can estimate maintenance costs on the Forester for a 10 year period.

I doubt anyone can give me a reasonably accurate estimate on the other one. Even if the extended warranty is taken, it would not only be very costly, and it would likely terminate before I plan to. My hearing "it has a great warranty" and "you can get an extended warranty" does not allay my fears on the specific costs of maintenance for a 10 year period.

Oh everyone is happy to sell me an extended warranty! All it takes is money. My money! And that is what I'm trying to watch.

Would that be battery replacement on a "pro-rated" basis, by any chance? Or can I get one from Sam's?

And if I might leap ahead a bit, what would those batteries cost after the

8yr/100,000 warranty period has elapsed? Will they even be available commercially at a reasonable cost? Does anyone know?

I'd go through that warranty 100,000 miles in about 5-6 years. THen what?

No, thanks. Too many factors are as yet unknown. But, maybe I'm just not a 'living-on-the-edge" sort of guy. Obviously, some folks are. I'll let them have the experience first.

Dan, which hybrid did you buy, and how do you like it? How is it performing in the very cold weather you've been having lately?

I think my current Toyota Prius and my former Forester (was new when I bought in 99) are two entirely different kinds of cars. I loved my Forester, until I drove a Prius. Forester was in the body shop for a week and I rented a Prius. At the end of the week, I wanted to sell my Forester and did when the 02 Prius came out. The Forester felt very solid, and it was nice to know the all-wheel drive was there if needed. Other than that, much more comfortable sitting position in the Prius, and a much quieter car. The reason I am willing to put up with the unknowns are far as maintenance over the long haul is that the car appeals to my environmental sense. Up to

90% less emissions, and I am averaging 45 mpg in winter and 51 in summer. I have a 33 mile drive to work every day with no public transportion options, so feel better driving the Prius, just because those are my values. If someone doesn't have those values, then it might not work for them. We still have 2 Subarus in the family, btw.

LC

Of course. You probably can't take anyone's word for how comfortable a car is until you drive it yourself.

I don't even necessarily think it's the greatest idea. I don't think we should encourage people who can't park a car to start driving. There NEEDS to be a learning curve and clearly it isn't steep enough now because 44,000 people die each year in car crashes in the US.

Ouch. I'm an engineer. I hate sales and marketing people.

Of course not. You asked for comfort, convenience, and reliability.

I don't talk to sales people. I do my own research and then tolerate the oily presence of the car salesman because it's the easiest way to get a test drive. I find that most of the sales people know less than I do about the car. The only exceptions have been the sales people I actually bought cars from.

Dunno. It's probably in there somewhere. Try the build your own car option on the website.

Yes, it's nearly a 300V unit. The waranty covers it until 8/100k or more. I don't know what it will cost to replace.

I'm still waiting for the designs to meet my approval before I buy one.

I have a 2003 XS Forester. Love it.

Since none of them are 10 years old, I doubt anyone can tell you.

There are mods posted online that use a replacement battery from Sears.

Presumably the demand will be there, since lots of people are buying them, and other manufacturers are about to launch hybrids (Ford Escape, Saturn VUE) in the next couple of years, so batteries will probably be available. Better batteries or even fuel cells might even be available as replacements, but I'm speculating.

Unless the batteries die the second you hit 100k, I assume you'd keep driving until they needed replacement and you'd replace them.

I haven't yet bought a hybrid because my current car is still running fine and the current crop of commercially available hybrids don't meet my idea of what a true hybrid should be. I am looking seriously at the 2004 Prius (many changes in the right direction, IMHO) and may go that way in a year or so when I need a new car. I would put

100k on the car in about 3 years, so I'm also concerned about the battery replacement issue. :)

-DanD

There is a thing called accelerated life testing. In an ideal world results would be available.

-rick-

Now THIS is the sort of comment that drives me to seriously consider the Prius.

I've never heard from an owner who had comments like this. Thanks, LC, it helps me move a bit in my intransigence to new ideas. Those sorts of opinions from a user are worth my consideration. I am moved more by the economy than the environmental aspect, but that is worth consideration as well, and both are related.

As to being environmentally concerned, I am ... BUT. My concern is limited, and tempered by this strange idea that most of the "environmentalists" who are quoted in the media are merely folks with an agenda who "use" facts and statistics to further that agenda. I still haven't made up my own mind as to whether there really IS a "global warming" or an ozone problem. The scientists who do not agree with all of that are RARELY quoted in media. I still wonder why. Are they wrong or does their message just not sell papers? Jury is out, here. I guess I am very cynical. The things I've seen in my life have had that effect on my attitudes.

Thanks again for your positive note!

Okay, Dan!

Boy, between you and the previous poster, I am having more serious thoughts about a Prius! What you've said here sounds a lot more honest than the impression I got from your first few posts. (Dear Engineer: Sorry about that Madison Ave crack. But that was the reading I was getting from it. ) I'm not an environmentalist, more of an economist, and I share your attitude toward salesmen. When they start their spiel, I start my nap.

We happened to get a very good one when I bought the Forester, he knew his business, his car, and he knew when to step out and go back inside the building! He also knew how to get a better price for me than I had expected to get! :-) About a $250 better price!

But if I'm still alive when we need another car ... we'll see what gives. This Forester will probably last longer than I will, but nothing is for certain in this life, right? I will take a much closer look at the Prius now!

In my experience, most of the people who tout themselves as environmentalists have little to no scientific background. They talk about things like emissions, pollutants, the carbon cycle, ozone, or global warming with no understanding of what any of it really means. If you get a chance, check out the environmental episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit. They ask some pretty prominent environmental people some fairly basic questions about the science behind their particular areas of concern and they're clueless. They also interview the founder of Greenpeace and he's one sharp guy. Unfortunately, he has left Greenpeace because it's been taken over by morons with no scientific background who want to use feelings instead of science in their attempt to understand the environment. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

-DanD

environmentalists

From my interpretation of what you say here, I believe we're in agreement.

From my cynical perspective, the approach the current crop of "activists" is taking is really quite harmful to the common good because I'm sure I'm not the only reader in America who has elected to simply ignore the common ravings and rantings of so-called environmentalists.

If they'd work together and present a united front, conclusions that more of could get behind, I believe more of our societal needs could be met. Meanwhile, we may be just floundering in a sea of problems which could be reduced or eliminated.

BTW, I noticed that your .sigs keep changing. Drat, there was one recent sig that I wanted to take note of, next time I saw it. Oh well, maybe it will return one day! :-)

environmentalists

You couldn't be more right but let me add one thing. The next time you meet an environmentalist ask them how many trees they've planted in their life (usually none.) Then ask a deer hunter the same question. I think you'll be at least a little surprised.

Most environmentalist want somebody else to do all the work and make all the sacrifices.

Tony

It gets even worse if you look at the loons at PETA. As if funding terrorism wasn't bad enough, now they're trying to scare children.

Yep.

It's automatically (and somewhat randomly) selected each time from a big file. It may show up again, but no telling when.

-DanD

I bet I won't be surprised at all. :)

According to the founder of Greenpeace I mentioned earlier, there are more trees in the US now than ever due to replanting. Guess who does the replanting? Hunters are responsible for a lot of game preservation because if they kill off all the deer, no more hunting. Ducks Unlimited has preserved a lot of wetlands.

-DanD