Acute engine failure in 2001 Forester with 135k miles

Interesting, something similar happened to my brother's 2001 Pontiac Grand Prix. They talked about replacing the engine too, but we just decided to junk it. At nearly $2500 for an engine replacement, I don't think you'll make that money back on the car if you were to sell it. Why not call it a night on the old bird?

Yousuf Khan

If the engine was in a state where you had to make your "best efforts to keep the coolant topped up" then there was obviously something serious going on. Warped head(s)? Cracked head or block? Both head gaskets rather than one leaking? The possibilities seem endless. I'd say that the price you quote is enough to make me choke but it has been a long time since I've had to have such a transplant done so it may be a fine price. If it were mine and everything else on the car was in satisfactory condition then I'd probably go ahead and do the deed. If the car was not otherwise satisfactory I'd probably be looking for an excuse to replace it and the engine would probably do the trick. Ten years of age seems to be a tipping point.

I'd be having conversation with the shop that did the head gasket.

And take the darned thing somewhere else for diagnosis, here's why:

Rod or valve train failures (knocking/rattling) rarely happen instantaneously, but rather get gradually worse over time. What I _have_ seen fail as you describe are the timing belt idler pulleys, particularly the cogged one below the tensioner, as it is under a considerable load. The symptoms match what you are describing pretty much exactly, and if I were a gambling man . . .

Whoever did the head gasket had the timing belt off, and should have had the good sense to check/replace the idlers (and timing belt, _and_ water pump FWIW), while he was in there. Standard procedure.

In any event, it's really not all that much trouble to check for a bad idler pulley, you do have to remove the accessory belts, and then the timing belt covers, but a decent mechanic should be able to accomplish this in a couple of hours tops. If a pulley has, as I expect, failed, all pulleys should be removed, and if less than perfect, should be replaced, and a new timing belt installed. This amounts to a couple hundred $$$ in parts, and another hour's work or so. I'm guessing the car probably has 120K to 150K miles on it by now? Water pump, and front oil seal (or maybe even a complete oil pump) are all worthwhile things to do while this part of the engine is apart. Again, whoever did the head gasket should have at least suggested this work.

That said, you should be able to find a decent used engine for $1,000 to $1,500, try ebay if nothing else:

will generally run about $500. If you do it the "right"way you will install a new clutch and new hoses while you are at it,which could possibly bring you up to around the $2,500 mark. If thisisn't included in the estimate, your mechanic is looking to get apiece of you ("Cost's more to diagnose than to replace"; BS. You bethe judge of your mechanics integrity). Alas, this sort of pillage isall too common :-P

Hope this proves helpful.

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB Laboratory Manager Microelectronics Research University of Colorado (719) 262-3101

I asked the mechanic if there might have been a timing belt problem. He said, no, because then the engine wouldn't start at all. He had done the routine belt replacement last year. He had replaced the water pump, but there's no indication on the work order that he replaced tensioners, etc. I've worried about the level of his diagnostic skills, but there are no other shops -- of any quality -- located so close to us. The car had to be towed in -- there is limited oppotunity in that situation to take it around and find a good diagnostician!

Since the engine is the interference type, I figure that even if there was a belt tension problem, the engine was pretty much destroyed anyway. The car is otherwise in excellent shape, so it's worth it to replace the engine. If there's still a timing system problem this time, when he turns the key he'll (sigh) find out about it then.

-- Charles Packer

Couple th The Subaru thermostat on that year 2001 uses a progressive thermostat that is supposed to open in a different sequnece than the regular off the shelf ones. (If I recall correctly, the difference is the Subaru will open slowly as the engine gets hotter, and normal ones just "open" or "close")

When my gaskets were replaced, they put in a regular one, but it ends up making it run just slightly too cool (the needle gets to low-warm and stays there).

So that's one thing that could be off.

Number two; that model ALSO has the coolant top loop that has a nasty tendancy to get air bubbles in it. (There is a blog out there that details the problem.) That being handing off "fill that car with coolant" to the noob mechanic can lead to a large air bubble in the cooling system. Which may have turned around and caused a hotspot in your newly or partially fixed motor.

IF YOU WERE LOSING COOLANT, though, they did not fix it correctly the first time around. So it really depends on how much you put in over what time period. Topping it off a bit after engine work makes sense, needing to put in two cups every week does not. Mine had two leaks, one outside gasket leak, and one "down the pipe" leak that both needed correcting.

At this point, yeah, you are probably right on the line between "not worth it" and "get a refirb motor". If you go for the repair, make sure they get the idea the coolant is not a thing to treat lightly, you HAVE to know how to put it in right.

If you elect to replace the engine, I've read (no connection to them, never used their services) that CCR is a long-time soob engine rebuilder. seem to have a good reputation too. maybe check their prices;

fyi

Carl

IMO, you _should_ be worried about your mechanic. A failure of the idler pulley bearing will frequently leave the timing belt in place, but may cause it to jump a cog or two. The engine will then start and run, but it will make a horrible noise; sounds for all the world like a bad rod. If the timing belt has moved, it will run real rough as well.

I've seen this a couple of times. My daily driver is a '99 Forester that I got off of a tow truck with the exact symptoms described. The owner's mechanic had told her that the engine had a bad rod and wasn't worth repairing. Lazy, or ignorant, but inexcusable. Guess I shouldn't complain, but damn.

My buddy owns a Subaru salvage yard. He once showed me a 2.5L SOHC that _had_ grenaded as a result of a timing belt idler failure (chunks of idler bearing were embedded in the block), but in this instance it had caused the timing belt to derail, which allowed the good 'ol interference head design to do it's thing :-P You could see something bad had happened, 'cause the timing belt covers were mangled.That one wouldn't have started.

FWIW, when I did the routine timing belt replacement on my wife's '02 Forry at ~120K, the same cogged idler was in the process of failing, and the rest were none too good . . .

So did your mechanic drain the oil to check for metal flakes/chunks? Did he run a compression test? Did he pull the valve covers to check for a bent valve? We know he didn't check the timing belt system. Now I'm not saying that he's necessarily wrong, mind you, but it doesn't sound like he has done enough diagnostic work to flat-out declare "bad engine". And a Subaru engine swap is actually pretty easy; I'll do 'em all day long for $500 a go; put on a new clutch for ya too while I'm at it. Can you say "gravy train"?

I'd try craigs list or other local classifieds to see if you cant find an honest independent mechanic. (An honest wrench will tell you the same story I have.) Or tell us where you are; maybe somebody on the group can make a recommendation.

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB Laboratory Manager Microelectronics Research University of Colorado (719) 262-3101

I don't doubt our mechanic's honesty at all. But it's evident by now that he's not up to tricky diagnostics. I would give greater weight to a personal recommendation than to a Craigslist ad. And that means a reccomendation from somebody who actually knows the mechanic and is a satisfied customer. I'm in Washington, D.C.

-- Charles Packer

Take a ride out to The Plains, VA for a honest mechanic. Don't know if my old friend still has his shop there, been a bunch of years since I lived there, but he is as honest as the day is long. Only repair shop in town so no problem finding if still there. Ask around for Mike Armstrong. Mention to Mike I know him from the days when I lived in The Glebe,