Impreza automatic vs manual

Anti-lock brake systems work by employing wheel speed sensors that can tell when a wheel locks up under braking. When this condition is detected, the ABS system modulates brake pressure to the affected wheel (or sometimes to multiple wheels, depending on how cheap an ABS system you have). This has the effect of "pulsing" the brakes very rapidly, so that the wheel alternately locks and is realeased very quickly. The point of this is to retain steering control under heavy braking and, according to the literature, reduce stopping distance. When the front wheels are locked during braking, you have zero steering control. And when the rears lock, your car is extremely prone to oversteer. For these reasons, I don't contest that ABS achieves the first claimed benefit (of retaining steering control). It is worth noting, however, that one can retain steering control under hard braking *without* ABS by simply paying attention and modulating brake pressure manually to prevent wheel lockup.

This leads me to the second claim about ABS -- namely, that it reduces stopping distance. A car will stop faster with ABS than with the wheels locked up, this I don't doubt. And so for a severely unskilled driver -- one who's incapable of anything more than simply standing on the brake pedal when something unexpected happens -- ABS may well result in a shorter stopping distance. But because the brakes are alternately engaged and released with ABS, stopping distance is actually longer than if continuous brake pressure is applied just below the point of lockup. (This is called "threshold braking.") The benefits of threshold braking as compared to ABS-controlled braking seems by my experience to be related directly to available road adhesion. On dry pavement, the benefit of threshold braking over ABS might only be 3 or 4 feet in a stop from 70 mph. But as roads deteriorate to the snow-covered conditions we often experience in northern Michigan's winter months, the advantage of threshold braking over ABS is significant. It can literally mean the difference between stopping before an intersection or continuing into the path of that big truck. I therefore prefer vehicles whose ABS systems can be manually disengaged by the driver from within the cockpit (as my Audi has). If you are driving an ABS-equipped car in the winter months, I would strongly advise you to allow

*lots* of stopping distance. And if you see me and my Audi out on a snowy road, don't attempt to keep up or to wait as long as I do to stop unless you know what you're doing. You'll likely end up in a ditch or connecting with another vehicle.

It is worth noting that any ABS system will only make itself known when it senses wheel lockup. As long as you never brake hard enough to lock a wheel, you'll never know that your car has ABS. ABS is nearly standard equipment any more -- only the very cheapest of cars still don't have it. You can probably take this to mean that it's not somthing you should worry about. But as with any aspect of your car's handling characteristics, it's important to know both the benefits and the limitations of ABS, and drive accordingly.

Perhaps the best advice I can give regarding ABS or any other aspect of driving is to not be afraid to find out what your car's limitations are and what it does when you exceed them (under appropriate conditions, of course). The experience will help you to avoid exceeding those limitations in conditions when such shenanigans are not appropriate. But more importantly, it will familiarize you with just what your car will do when those limitations are exceeded. Such familiarity will help to remove the "panic" feeling that so often paralyzes drivers in emergency situations, thereby allowing you to do more than just mash the brake pedal to the floor. It will make you a better -- and safer -- driver.

- Greg Reed

Reply to
Greg Reed
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Oh, I would not be surprised if all that was true. Hey, they didn't go to all the trouble to engineer and build it for nothin'. It's just that it can't help but increase the flat-out, "I need to stop NOW," _stopping distance_ and, in the places where I drive, I think I prefer the option. The way and the places I drive, by the time I'm pressing hard on the brakes, it's because I would like to STOP.

It just seems suicidal to drive around with a system that intentionally increases my stopping distance. It seems like such a _liability_ for the manufacturer: why won't somebody sue because the "safety" equipment slammed them into something? Let me put it this way: I've had way more close calls since I started driving with this ABS, then I've had sliding out of control on slick ice, since I was about 17.

Reply to
David Buchner

If all it takes is pulling out the fuse, it should be trivial to wire up a switch to let you switch ABS on and off. I don't know if this could be done on the fly (does it require a self-test at startup?) but it would spare you the trouble of pulling the fuse if you do it frequently. It would probably be a good idea to put a fuse in such a fuse bypass to prevent whatever the original fuse was intended to prevent.

-DanD

Reply to
Dan Duncan

"andy" wrote > My question again is this. Is there something wrong w/ ABS on subarus that

I again pulled the ABS fuse. Because when I get one wheel on ice, the brakes to all four wheels are disabled!!! I was led to believe that other makers DON'T do this. I have seen reference to 3 channel and 4 channel ABS. Anyone with another brand and how they work? JerryO

Reply to
JerryO

My first post here...

Being an Australian, with an early upbringing in a rallying environment, I feel I may have a contribution to make on the topic.

ABS is designed as a safety factor. It is not designed as a cure-all for bad driving technique. The ultimate objective of ABS is not to REDUCE STOPPING distance......... it is to REDUCE LOSS OF STEERING / TRACTION during braking due to wheel lock-up, consequently adding a small amount to the stopping distance.

It is designed so that when somebody gets into a situation where they DO just close eyes, grip wheel, plant both feet on brake pedal and pray, they are not going to lose steering control, and are still able to open the eyes, steer as best as possible away from the hazard, at the expense of a few extra metres (or feet, for our North American & neighbouring readers)

For those without ABS, a sudden stab on the brakes can very easily (and very often) leave you without ANY vehicle control whatsoever. On a bitumen or paved road situation, this is very dangerous. ABS eliminates the tendency to lose steering WHERE TRACTION IS SUFFICIENT TO BEGIN WITH.

For those situations where traction is limited, then I agree that in certain circumstances, ABS can be detrimental. To overcome this, if you have done some defensive driving and feel comfortable with your abilities, then remove the ABS fuse when driving in those conditions. However, for those who do NOT have competent defensive abilities, or who are in slippery situations, then the ONLY recourse is simple mathematics:

REDUCE YOUR TRAVEL SPEED.......INCREASE YOUR FOLLOWING DISTANCE....... INCREASE YOUR ALERTNESS AND AWARENESS......INCREASE YOUR CHANCES OF YOUAND YOUR CAR SURVIVING A COLLISION

Regards to All Osiris

1991 Australian spec RS Turbo Liberty (Legacy) Sedan Manual(2.0L T) 1985 Australian spec L-Series Leone FWD Manual (1.8L) 2001 Australian spec GX Ltd Liberty (Legacy) Wagon Manual(2.0L)

David Buchner wrote:

Reply to
ANONYMOUS

My first post here...

Being an Australian, with an early upbringing in a rallying environment, I feel I may have a contribution to make on the topic.

ABS is designed as a safety factor. It is not designed as a cure-all for bad driving technique. The ultimate objective of ABS is not to REDUCE STOPPING distance......... it is to REDUCE LOSS OF STEERING / TRACTION during braking due to wheel lock-up, consequently adding a small amount to the stopping distance.

It is designed so that when somebody gets into a situation where they DO just close eyes, grip wheel, plant both feet on brake pedal and pray, they are not going to lose steering control, and are still able to open the eyes, steer as best as possible away from the hazard, at the expense of a few extra metres (or feet, for our North American & neighbouring readers)

For those without ABS, a sudden stab on the brakes can very easily (and very often) leave you without ANY vehicle control whatsoever. On a bitumen or paved road situation, this is very dangerous. ABS eliminates the tendency to lose steering WHERE TRACTION IS SUFFICIENT TO BEGIN WITH.

For those situations where traction is limited, then I agree that in certain circumstances, ABS can be detrimental. To overcome this, if you have done some defensive driving and feel comfortable with your abilities, then remove the ABS fuse when driving in those conditions. However, for those who do NOT have competent defensive abilities, or who are in slippery situations, then the ONLY recourse is simple mathematics:

REDUCE YOUR TRAVEL SPEED.......INCREASE YOUR FOLLOWING DISTANCE....... INCREASE YOUR ALERTNESS AND AWARENESS......INCREASE YOUR CHANCES OF YOUAND YOUR CAR SURVIVING A COLLISION

Regards to All Osiris

1991 Australian spec RS Turbo Liberty (Legacy) Sedan Manual(2.0L T) 1985 Australian spec L-Series Leone FWD Manual (1.8L) 2001 Australian spec GX Ltd Liberty (Legacy) Wagon Manual(2.0L)

David Buchner wrote:

Reply to
Osiris

Remember, too, in all this discussion of the "WRX ABS" and "why would Subaru put ABS in that does this", that Subaru's ABS was subcontracted out.

It's a BOSCH ABS unit, running Bosch's code, that does the antilock braking on Subarus, and a whole

*bunch* of other makes and models of cars.

That said, there are documents on the net [1] showing Bosch had some programming errors in Impreza models prior to 2003 (or part of MY03)...complaints in US led NHTSA to question SOA and FHI, and it's all there to see. Subaru & FHI pinged Bosch hard for the wheel-size sensing non-update issue, but stated the ABS activation during rough-surface wheel lift was normal function.

I was concerned with the ABS performance after reading the documents, and paid close attention to the braking...I'm satisfied with it on my 04.

Steve

[1] Try googling "ABS activation WRX Subaru FHI Bosch NHTSA pdf" and you'll find it. Some of it's in english, too!
Reply to
CompUser

Pulling the fuse does result in the "ABS" warning light staying on.

Good point. I believe that was the case, when I did it.

Reply to
David Buchner

Cool, you don't even need a lighted switch!

-DanD

Reply to
Dan Duncan

You may be mistaken. Each one is individualy controlled. That dont have cross-input... so theres no way for another brake to do it because another had. Theres no communication between the wheels in other words.

Your car has 4 channel ABS right? Each wheel is individual in behavior. The computer isnt even wired in a way that would allow the behavior of one wheel to affect the behavior of another wheel. A long round-a-bout way of saying... Its impossible.

Unless possesed by a demon of course.

Rob

Reply to
Rob Duncan

Communication between the wheels isn't required for that to happen.

I don't think you understand the system correctly. There's a central control unit. The wheels don't need to know what the other wheels are doing. Only the control unit needs to know. And it can disable all the wheels. Never experienced it, but I'm not going to tell people who claim they have that it's impossible.

Reply to
David

I'm skeptical of that. Since one central control unit controls all wheels, how is it possible it isn't wired in such a way that it can control all wheels? How is it wired in such a way that it couldn't disable one in response to the signals from another? You could claim it shouldn't be programmed that way, but it wouldn't change the fact that it might be.

Anyway we are told that to some extent that's what ABS is supposed to do, to help maintain vehicle control. If one side has no traction it backs off on the other side too. From people's stories in this thread, it sounds like for at least some model years, it backs off way too far though

Reply to
David

4 channel does not mean totally independent.

formatting link
read and learn.

ken

Reply to
Ken Gilbert

Im not saying nothing happened. I dont think its due to the abs though. The control unit isnt designed in a way that would allow it to affect the behavior of one wheel, based on the behavior of another wheel. It just isnt designed to do it.

Rob

Reply to
Rob Duncan

wheels, how is it possible

wired in such a way

could claim it

I understand what youre saying now. Right. If the computer was wired and programmed to affect a wheel, based on the input from another wheel... it could do that. But its not wired or programmed that way. It could be, but its not.

other side too.

ABS scared the shit out of me the first time I had to come to a stop in the snow. I was not prepared to drive staight on through the intersection... rather than just coming to a stop. That was the point in which I decided Id better learn something about these things. We have Powell's, the largest bookstore in the world, and man do I love getting lost in their auto section. Im trying to think of a book I read that had a chapter devoted to some of the newer ABS systems. I'll think of it. But this I know, if its not programmed to do it, it wont.

Rob

Reply to
Rob Duncan

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